[Mentalist]

So, we've been confounded by this question ever since Mafia 15 (Obdi's Flames game), and since many of our prospective mods love the cult/merc setups, it's likely to keep coming up, so I want to settle this once and for all, and create a modding guideline set in stone

so,
Guard A Guards player B
Player B, a guard himself, submits a night action to guard Player C, who happens to be, say a killer

since all actions are processed simultaneously, does the action of Player C still go through?

opinions are welcome, if we lack consensus, I'll suggest making a poll to establish a universal forum guideline, since using guards is one of the more common mechanic, and even low TMDI games sometimes include symp-guards for the scum.

[Silencer]

It seems logical.
Guard guards guard, so the guard gets guarded.

That's just my take.

[Jump Around]

Night action of player C does go through.

It's always tricky to put more than one guard in a game, but the case described is quite clear.

When you say "all night actions go through simultaneously", it means the only rule that applies is logic, applied to the whole picture. Otherwise, on the logic that guard 2 still gets his guard action in, you can argue that guards are useless. Remove guard A, and think of the other two. Since it's simultaneous, why wouldn't player C's kill go through since it happens "simultaneously" with the guard guarding him?

This post has been edited by Jump Around: 30 September 2008 - 08:00 AM

[Tapper]

Silencer, on Sep 30 2008, 08:03 AM, said:

It seems logical.
Guard guards guard, so the guard gets guarded.

That's just my take.

Mentalist said:

Guard A Guards player B
Player B, a guard himself, submits a night action to guard Player C, who happens to be, say a killer
since all actions are processed simultaneously, does the action of Player C still go through?

Short answer: No. Otherwise, if all actions were truely proceeded simultaneously, Player C's action would also happen, since it is also happening simultaneously with the actions of A and B. i.e. Kill would go off at the same time as a heal/guard/find... wouldn't it?

Longer: Instead, I'd say that the rule is: if you are guarded, your night actions have no effects, no matter what the nature of your night action is, period.
It's a nasty thing... I've been playing several card-/ roleplaying games for nearly a decade before I decided I was grown up and timing rules are always the thing that makes such a game complex and counterintuitive. Mafia mechanics are a lot like those in RPGs and CCGs.

Maybe we should do what they do, for 'special' games, have the mod establish a priority chain for targeting? I did so for certain mechanics in my Rome game, and after doing that, I realized that at the least for that game, life was a lot easier for determining what is going to happen, for co-mods to get a feel of the game and also for players to determine what has happened to their action.

Example: if/when a role is able to ignore a single night action on himself, the priority is Kill > Guard > Find > Heal.

[Tapper]

That was a crosspost with JA.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 30 September 2008 - 08:09 AM

[Silencer]

I just tend to imagine people. That makes it clearer.

For the record, what I said is what JA said.

[dktorode]

If you guard a guard the guard cant guard...

say that ten times fast

[drinksinbars]

excctly - damn you bubba you should of died!!!!

how can the killer be guarded by a guarded guard!!!

[Jump Around]

At the end it's all logical.

We had some pretty messed up games, but I don't think we ever had big arguments about this (except in the last one where Dibs won't digest it so easily )

Like Tapper said, when you design a game, try to think of all the twisted night scenarios, and if there's a time where an extra rule needs to be made, make it.

One other example that comes to mind is a one-shot bulletproof in a game with more than one killer. What happens if the bulletproof gets targeted by 2 killers in the same night?

[Gavin]

Jump Around, on Sep 30 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

At the end it's all logical.

We had some pretty messed up games, but I don't think we ever had big arguments about this (except in the last one where Dibs won't digest it so easily )

Like Tapper said, when you design a game, try to think of all the twisted night scenarios, and if there's a time where an extra rule needs to be made, make it.

One other example that comes to mind is a one-shot bulletproof in a game with more than one killer. What happens if the bulletproof gets targeted by 2 killers in the same night?

I don't even get how this was discussed. I don't think I played in the game but isn't it just a normal situation? A Guard blocks a targets night action. If you block a killer they don't get a kill. If you block a healer they don't get their heal in. If you block a Guard they don't get their guard. How was this in anyway different? Its not even a special case.

If someone managed to argue against it and get away with it then my hats off to them....


For the BP thing which is a good situation, I reckon people should make it clear in the role PM. So if it says, your BP for one Kill, then two killers target you, then unfortunately you are dead. Or say it gets set off and your BP for that Night.

[dktorode]

Jump Around, on Sep 30 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

At the end it's all logical.

We had some pretty messed up games, but I don't think we ever had big arguments about this (except in the last one where Dibs won't digest it so easily )

Like Tapper said, when you design a game, try to think of all the twisted night scenarios, and if there's a time where an extra rule needs to be made, make it.

One other example that comes to mind is a one-shot bulletproof in a game with more than one killer. What happens if the bulletproof gets targeted by 2 killers in the same night?

You see THAT is the situation where you say "all actions happen simultaneously"

So the BP will block both killers (same as a healer really) ...as his one shot works simultaneously for both kills. After all, how do you decide which kill then gets through if it isnt like that?

Thats the way i understood it atleast...even though i got screwed over a few games ago by two people killing me

[Jump Around]

dktorode, on Sep 30 2008, 02:31 PM, said:

You see THAT is the situation where you say "all actions happen simultaneously"

So the BP will block both killers (same as a healer really) ...as his one shot works simultaneously for both kills. After all, how do you decide which kill then gets through if it isnt like that?

Thats the way i understood it atleast...even though i got screwed over a few games ago by two people killing me

I agree totally, but this is a good thread to discuss things like this so that we can improve our modding skills. If anyone can think of other "tricky situations" it's the place for it.

I would also make the BP block both kills if they happen at the same time. Again, with the "simultaneous" rule.

[dktorode]

I would mod....if i had internet at home.

I am planning on getting again soon...though ive been saying that for over a year and a half now...

[drinksinbars]

well in obdis game he does clear it up he said

Night actions go in this order:
Blood changes
Guard
Heal
Find
Kill.

so if one guard is blocked, the kill goes through.

[q21]

All actions of the same role go through at the same time. Therefore a one shot bulletproof should block multiple kills simultaneously.

Also, guard A cancels guard B. As has been said before a few times.

[Bent]

q21, on Oct 2 2008, 06:39 AM, said:

All actions of the same role go through at the same time. Therefore a one shot bulletproof should block multiple kills simultaneously.

Also, guard A cancels guard B. As has been said before a few times.

But you see this is the contridiction, A BP gets to block 2 kills, but cange the scenario slightly, if a killer kills a killer, both kills go through, why would both gaurds not go through?

[q21]

Guard A targets Guard B who targets Roled Player C. Outside of any unusual Role the Guards will resolve first. When the time for Players C's action to happen comes you look back to see if anything precludes it from happening - you see that B guarded C, but also that B has been guarded, therefore C action happens.

Killer A targets Killer B who targets C. Both Kills happen at the same time, so when you look back to see if anything precludes the Kills from going through you don't see the Kill on B because it is simultaneous with the Kill on C. Therefore C dies too.

[dktorode]

Bent, on Oct 2 2008, 02:25 PM, said:

q21, on Oct 2 2008, 06:39 AM, said:

All actions of the same role go through at the same time. Therefore a one shot bulletproof should block multiple kills simultaneously.

Also, guard A cancels guard B. As has been said before a few times.

But you see this is the contridiction, A BP gets to block 2 kills, but cange the scenario slightly, if a killer kills a killer, both kills go through, why would both gaurds not go through?

In other words the guard role is different, if it operates as you say...then a guard could never work..now could it.

This post has been edited by dktorode: 03 October 2008 - 11:38 AM

[dktorode]

Its easier just to look at it that a guard stops the person he is guarding from doing his action, doesn't matter what role it is.
So the timing doesn't matter. Since the person doesn't even get to do his action.

Where as a killer doesnt stop a persons action, he just kills the person who he is targeting. That persons action still goes through.

Your comparing apples to oranges

This post has been edited by dktorode: 03 October 2008 - 11:43 AM

[drinksinbars]

Bent, on Oct 2 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

q21, on Oct 2 2008, 06:39 AM, said:

All actions of the same role go through at the same time. Therefore a one shot bulletproof should block multiple kills simultaneously.

Also, guard A cancels guard B. As has been said before a few times.

But you see this is the contridiction, A BP gets to block 2 kills, but cange the scenario slightly, if a killer kills a killer, both kills go through, why would both gaurds not go through?

well look at it in obdis game - guards do their stuff first, so as they are guarded, they cant perform their action and the intended to be guarded killer is no longeer guarded when its his turn to perform a night action.

as for bullet proof i think it depends ont he wording. if someone is immune to one night kill then if targeted twice they should die. if immune for one night if targetted then any number of attempts wont work one a particular night.