[Use Of Weapons]

lord of tragedy, on Oct 5 2008, 09:54 AM, said:

did anyone ever read camber the heretic? slightly worse than johson.

I love Kurtz's Deryni books, but agree that the Camber novels were disappointing. The religious hatred, while quite likely true in its intensity, still seemed to be over the top when on paper. A case of the truth being stranger (or at least, less believable) than fiction.

_Deryni Rising_ is still a great bit of Celtic fantasy, though.

[Abyss]

There's something to be said for the then vs. now fantasy genre, in that 'then', fantasy books got pimped by word of mouth, cool covers and the odd book review that one might, might spot, probably in Dragon magazine, vs now, with amazon recommendations, forums, mailing lists, author sites, frikkin Oprah, etc etc.

Point being once upon a time, Donaldson and Brooks and MacCaffery were the big names being pimped hard in book stores, and that was about it. Now the genre is wider, the sources of info are WAY wider, and if bitter lepers, brave farmboys and domesticated dragons aren't your thing, there's a helluva lot more to be found.

So, a lot of the significance of Brooks and company comes from being the right person to write the right story at the right time, thus influencing what writers came after. Right? because otherwise the entire fantasy genre grew out of Ed Greenwood's weekend dungeaons and dragons games, and i can't accept that...

- Abyss, write the right...

[stone monkey]

The keys to this list are influence and timing. I've been really reading sf and fantasy with an approximately adult eye since the early 80s. and a lot of these choices only make sense if you put them in the context of their time and of what they influenced later on. Quality, good or bad, doesn't have all that much to do with it.

To be honest I think Iain M Banks' Consider Phlebas is the only glaring omission as imo it is the ur-text for the modern space opera. But remembering that the list is a US one means that Banks almost certainly wouldn't be on it as I don't think he's seen to have much of a reading over there; and his politics would not make him popular in US sf circles.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I think Shannara is clearly influenced by tLotR. It's basically a carbon copy.

I'm suprised Gemmel's Legend and Feist's Magician were not on the list. I see shades of both books in many modern fantasies

[Called-by-the-Voices]

The Sil below Harry Potter? Are these guys insane?

As for ASoIaF, didn't Martin himself confess that he was mainly inspired by Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn when writing A Song of Ice and Fire. (And I still think ASoIaF one of the most overrated series ever)

[Werthead]

1 The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien - Undeniable, I think.
2 The Foundation Trilogy, Isaac Asimov - 2nd place? Really? It's influence is waning now and among Asimov I'd say the Robots books are far more influental.

3Dune, Frank Herbert - I'd probably put it second, but fair enough.
4Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert A. Heinlein - Definitely a US list, then. This book is severely overrated, and not Heinlein's best (which would probably be Starship Troopers).

5A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. Le Guin - yup.
6Neuromancer, William Gibson - Sounds about right.
7Childhood's End, Arthur C. Clarke - Surprising, I'd have thought in terms of influence either Rama or 2001 would have been higher, but definitely Clarke's best book.

8 Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Philip K. Dick - Agreed.
9The Mists of Avalon, Marion Zimmer Bradley - Sad but true. In terms of Arthurian fantasy, Cornwell's trilogy is difficult to beat, but Bradley's book is better-known. Odd that TS White isn't up though, as Once and Future King is probably better-known than Avalon.

10Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury - Cool.
11The Book of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe - This is the one series that seems to be getting more and more praise as the years pass, and mostly well-deserved.

12A Canticle for Leibowitz, Walter M. Miller, Jr. - Yup.
13The Caves of Steel, Isaac Asimov - Good book, weird choice. I, Robot was far more influential than this.
14Children of the Atom, Wilmar Shiras - A bit forgotten these days, but a viable choice
15Cities in Flight, James Blish - Another book whose profile seems to be going up with the years. Cool stuff.
16The Colour of Magic, Terry Pratchett - Not by itself, I hope, as the book wasn't that great, but for introducing the world to Pratchett and ushering the later, far more significant Discworld books? Fair enough.

17Dangerous Visions, edited by Harlan Ellison - Agreed.
18Deathbird Stories, Harlan Ellison - Hang on, you want two sequential books by Ellison? Dangerous Visions, yup, but not this one.
19The Demolished Man, Alfred Bester - Definitely should be on the list, but not above Stars My Destination.
20Dhalgren, Samuel R. Delany - Cool.
21Dragonflight, Anne McCaffrey - Fair enough.
2322Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card - Definitely, as it introduced an entire generation to SF in the mid-1980s. Shame OSC has been phoning it in off the back of its success ever since.

24The First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, Stephen R. Donaldson - This far above Brooks? Probably not, but a decent placing.
25The Forever War, Joe Haldeman - Seems good.
26Gateway, Frederik Pohl - And this.
27Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, J.K. Rowling - Seems a bit new to have definitely influenced anyone. I expect to hear dozens of new writers quoting Rowling as being their inspiration in a decade's time, but this feels premature.

28The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams - Probably should have been a lot higher.
29I Am Legend, Richard Matheson - Maybe this as well.
Interview with the Vampire, Anne Rice - Influential in a very bad way, definitely.
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. Le Guin - Sounds about right.
Little, Big, John Crowley - And this.
Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny - Great novel, maybe should have been higher. And where the heck is Amber?
The Man in the High Castle, Philip K. Dick - Cool.
Mission of Gravity, Hal Clement - Borderline obscure, but okay.
More Than Human, Theodore Sturgeon - As well as this one.
The Rediscovery of Man, Cordwainer Smith - Definitely, maybe should have been higher.
On the Beach, Nevil Shute - Not read it.
Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C. Clarke - Probably should have been a lot higher, as it did perfect the Big Dumb Object genre...
Ringworld, Larry Niven - ...making it a companion to this one.
Rogue Moon, Algis Budrys - Not read this one either.
The Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien - Probably should have been higher, but cool.
Slaughterhouse-5, Kurt Vonnegut - Yup.
Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson - Nice.
Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner - More influential than Bester or Moorcock? I doubt it, but it's great to see it listed.
The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester - Should have been top twenty, at least.
Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein - Likewise.
Stormbringer, Michael Moorcock - God, and a million emo albino heroes with soul-drinking swords were born.
The Sword of Shannara, Terry Brooks - Regretfully, should have been a lot higher.
Timescape, Gregory Benford - When was this list made? 1983? Yeah, an important and noteworthy book, but there's others that should have been up here.

To Your Scattered Bodies Go, Philip Jose Farmer - On the to read list.


Broadly the list seems okay, although Amber's absence is notable. More ludicrous is the absence of Dunsany or Howard or Peake or Vance. The list also feels SF-heavy, with some fantasy thrown in to make up the numbers. And if you're going to go as recently as Rowling, than that raises questions about why Jordan or Pullman aren't on the list either.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 09 October 2008 - 06:48 PM

[polishgenius]

I almost hate to point out after Wert put all the attention to the rankings that the list gets alphabetical after the top 10.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I agree with Wert about Howard. A more influential writer would be hard to find in the fantasy genre. Same goes for Peake I suppose (although I dont really like him).

[Werthead]

polishgenius, on Oct 10 2008, 01:41 AM, said:

I almost hate to point out after Wert put all the attention to the rankings that the list gets alphabetical after the top 10.

Arse

Quote

I agree with Wert about Howard. A more influential writer would be hard to find in the fantasy genre. Same goes for Peake I suppose (although I dont really like him).

I was interested to see that after many years being out-of-print, particularly in the USA, both these authors are suddenly back in force with new omnibus editions being aggressively marketed. I've been reading the Conan stories on-and-off for a year or so now, and found them extremely readable. I was particularly impressed by the points that Howard was trying to make through Conan, that reminded me of what SE was doing was Karsa, but more concisely done.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

That's funny, I recently read the big Conan Omnibus book, and was constantly reminded of Karsa. His ignorance, stubburness, and bullheadedness are the same as Conan's - and so is his potential to slay people out of hand.

[Dancer+]

What makes the Conan books so entertaining? (just out of curiosity)

And btw, Wert did you make a comment in the Metro today (about Sierra Leone and the Pope)?

[Werthead]

Dancer, on Oct 14 2008, 12:17 PM, said:

What makes the Conan books so entertaining? (just out of curiosity)

Their basic straightforwardness (crazy shit goes down, Conan deals), their relentless non-PCness (although REH is a bit more liberal than you might think considering where and when he wrote) and the ideas REH wrapped around the stories. Howard had this very strong feeling that civilisation is an aberration in humanity's development and barbarism is our natural state. You see that in Conan and that seems to be Karsa's view as well, although unlike Conan Karsa actually wants to do something about it.

Quote

And btw, Wert did you make a comment in the Metro today (about Sierra Leone and the Pope)?

Not to my knowledge.