[cerveza_fiesta]

There is a kind of bizarre news story from just north of here where a band of natives has decided not to renew the Province of New Brunswick's lease on their land until the province builds onramps to their little community from the main highway. The reasoning for the onramps is that the main highway, just completed last autumn, bypasses their town while the old highway provided direct access. Nothing new community-wise, smaller towns get screwed out of highway access all the time here since DOT can't afford to put a highway to every little shithole along the way.

They way they're protesting is interesting though. There is a school that sits partly on native leased land and partly on provincially owned land. The native band is threatening to actually protest at the school and physically block students from entering the parts of the school that are on native owned land.

Land in Canada (don't know how it works everywhere else really) is all owned by the Crown (since we're still a commonwealth country) and everybody leases it by paying property tax to avoid losing their land to the government. It's a good arrangement from gov't's point of view since they can expropriate any land they need at any time to build whatever they want regardless of objections. Blah blah blah, you get the point, but the only land in Canada not owned by the gov't is indian reservation land.

Back to the story though, I don't really know what to think about the cause. They are right of course that losing highway access cuts down on what little business they generated from passing travelers with the old highway. For this reason they believe they deserve an offramp. Fine. It's the method of protestation that irks me. In any (modern) war or conflict it's pretty much accepted that you LEAVE THE CHILDREN THE FUCK OUT OF IT. Shoot, maim, kill, protest, do whatever you want but don't let it affect the precious children to the best of your ability. '

So by protesting and basically threatening the safety of studens within a school, how can this native band help but look like the bad guys? It wouldn't matter if they had the most just cause since overthrowing the nazis. They way they are protesting is going to make natives look like a bunch of idiotic savages. I hope this doesn't get out of hand. The principal has already said he won't send the kids to school if there is a protest and the minister of Transportation isn't budging a milimeter on the onramp thing...Anybody got opinions on this or other native issues?

[Obdigore]

cerveza_fiesta;373325 said:

It's the method of protestation that irks me. In any (modern) war or conflict it's pretty much accepted that you LEAVE THE CHILDREN THE FUCK OUT OF IT. Shoot, maim, kill, protest, do whatever you want but don't let it affect the precious children to the best of your ability. '

Are you kidding? People always claim 'think of the children', but show me a single war where children were 'untouchables'. They are not untouchable, they are just targets with less military value than others, unless you are attemping to 'win the hearts and minds (snicker)', then they are the only targets.

If this is the only way this group of people has to get their story out, you better believe they are going to take it so they can get heard, at the very least.

[cerveza_fiesta]

I know the true state of things in conflict and I know that the kids usually get screwed....but nobody goes into a conflict saying "I am going to harm children and nothing else".

But that is excatly what this native band is doing. Not physically harming perse, more harm to their education...whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter that it's for a just cause, they come out looking like the bullying idiots because of peoples' views on harming children.

All anybody on this continent responds to is civilized discourse and diplomacy. The band is casting itself in a very bad light with this protest, showing that first nations people are willing to do anything to achieve their goals.

[HoosierDaddy]

Hmmm, this is one case where I think perhaps capitalism has it right. You own the property. Government wants it? Fine, eminent domain & fair market value. I say the smart thing to do is boycot their little town. Surely it needs people other than natives to survive, right? In the meantime, just use the gymnasium for some of the classes, have some classes outside (or is it snowy up there already?).

I imagine the government has more resources and a better chance of winning a stand-off.

[Menandore]

This isn't hurting those kids any more than a teacher's strike would. I'm kinda with obdi on this - if this is the only way they can protest then let them. If it wasn't a native town then they might not be able to force the government to build them highway access but if a non-native town did have some kind of leverage they would use it. Good luck to 'em I say.

[Obdigore]

As an aside, your argument has no merit.

CF said:

Land in Canada (don't know how it works everywhere else really) is all owned by the Crown (since we're still a commonwealth country) and everybody leases it by paying property tax to avoid losing their land to the government. It's a good arrangement from gov't's point of view since they can expropriate any land they need at any time to build whatever they want regardless of objections. Blah blah blah, you get the point, but the only land in Canada not owned by the gov't is indian reservation land.

So the indian reservation land is not owned by the Canadian government, right? Those indian reservations are owned by said indian tribes, as a soverign nation, much like in the US, right?

Since the structure rests partly on the indian land, they can use it for whatever they wish. Technically, there is no reason they could not demolish the part on their land and build a strip club there, if they so choose.

Sounds like the Indian Reservation's argument is 'Give us access to your freeway, or you don't get to use anything on our land, such as this public structure'. Does the indian reservation help fund the school? If so, they have an even better claim on their part of the structure.

Also, they are not threatening the 'safety' of the students in the school. If you have people just standing there, not letting children down hallways into the 'indian' part of the school, then I don't think anyone's safety is threatened.

Do you have a link to the news story please, CF?

[cerveza_fiesta]

nah, not threatened physically, nobody's talking about that specifically...but that's kind of how it's being billed what with the school district bossman pulling all the 1200 students out of school in the interests of their personal safety, as stated by the school district bossman on public radio. Whether he's overreacting or not, you can't help but conjure the image of an angry native protest where some poor kid gets a picket upside the face and all hell breaks loose.

As for the sovereign nation thing, I'm not totally sure on this...whether they're still part of canada or not...I'll have to look that up.

Here be the story on cbc.ca

http://ca.news.yahoo...da/nb_nb_school

And I know it's well within their right to do whatever they damn well please with their land, strip clubs in the gynasium included. I'm talking mainly about how they are hurting their cause through the methods they've chosen to promote it. Nobody in the area is going to take them seriously if they are keeping 1200 kids out of school over an onramp. You can see how the article slants against the native band's case calling their demans "threats" and saying that safety is a concern if there will be a large protest. I just think it will be a step back for them and generate a lot of disrespect and bad PR for the band if the parents of those 1200 kids all have to face their kids being kept out of school. The parents, being predominantly non-native will inevitably turn aggressions toward the native people, not the government.

[HoosierDaddy]

cerveza_fiesta;373434 said:

.... I just think it will be a step back for them and generate a lot of disrespect and bad PR for the band if the parents of those 1200 kids all have to face their kids being kept out of school.

The parents may hate them, but the kids are going to love them.

[Obdigore]

Judging by the wording in the article, the Government is leasing the land from the 'first nation', not the other way around.

Doing it this way is getting them media attention, and I agree that the article is written with a slant against the 'first nation.'

However, that land is not the government's, and the first nation will not sign a new lease with them without the government adding on/off ramps to an area the first nation wants to develop. Seems like a perfectly reasonable buisiness reaction on both sides.

The only problem that I can see is the mistake of the government to build a public institution on land that they were leasing, instead of land that they own.

At first there will be a backlash against the 'first nation', but as it goes on and neither side budges, I bet the public opinion will turn against the government since they should be 'fixing' this problem somehow, as people always expect...

[Cougar]

Read 'Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee' that should give a certain perspective - you'd never worry about anything the aboriginal people did again I think, you'd be to busy struggling with the weight of your own guilt.

I think the protest is legitimate, it's not like they are beating the kids.

[HoosierDaddy]

Don't need, nor do I want, to read that. The U.S. screwed over Native Americans. Let's just leave it at that.

[Moody]

US Govt should give back the US to the American Indians, and anyone who isn't an American Indian should have to move out of the country.

[Anomander]

Somehow (shockingly) I don't see that ever occuring. It irritates the hell out of me that natives get ridiculous amounts of benefits from the government and yet they bitch about damn near anything. I realize they've had it bad, etc etc but really the amount of them that abuse the system in place is disgusting. Maybe this is just in Cape Breton, as I don't have family involved in this issue anywhere else, but I have very little sympathy for them.

[Markymarz]

Theres got to be another way to get tot his place instead of a direct on ramp. I know alot of people who go to native reserves to get there cigarettes and such and they dont have off ramps right into there grounds. I think we should just give them Baffin Island and ship them all up there

[HoosierDaddy]

Moody, on Dec 22 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

US Govt should give back the US to the American Indians, and anyone who isn't an American Indian should have to move out of the country.

This would set an alarming precedent. Plus completely de-populate the former "U.S.A." In other words, it makes no sense.

[Lost Marine]

Cougar, on Aug 22 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

Read 'Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee' that should give a certain perspective - you'd never worry about anything the aboriginal people did again I think, you'd be to busy struggling with the weight of your own guilt.

I think the protest is legitimate, it's not like they are beating the kids.

What guilt? I wasn't at Wounded Knee why I should I carry guilt over it? It happened, it was deplorable, and I was no part of it, just like I was no part of the massacre at My Lai. I'll just make sure I never participate in anything like it and continue to be guilt free.

If I had been there and done that I'm sure I would have been ashamed about my actions but it's a moot point. This whole your ancestors did this bs is stupid, show me one nation on this Earth that doesn't have some terrible acts lurking in its past.

Moody, on Dec 22 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

US Govt should give back the US to the American Indians, and anyone who isn't an American Indian should have to move out of the country.

Ok, but we're taking all our toys with us.


OT- The government doesn't own the land, their lease is not being renewed, so they have no right to be holding classes in that building. So some kids can't get to the art class or something, it's not like they're dragging them out back and shooting them in the head. Seems just like an eviction to me, you don't let the tenants back in the building you've evicted them from after they're kicked out.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Guns. Problem solved.

Arm you children, little Canucks, that they may attend school in peace.

But seriously, the Native Americans are just whiners. They feel the need to control anything even tangentially involving them.

And they play the "You took my land" card all the time. Boo farging hoo.

We should have taken ALL the land in the first place.

[Silencer]

Anomander, on Dec 23 2008, 06:43 AM, said:

Somehow (shockingly) I don't see that ever occuring. It irritates the hell out of me that natives get ridiculous amounts of benefits from the government and yet they bitch about damn near anything. I realize they've had it bad, etc etc but really the amount of them that abuse the system in place is disgusting. Maybe this is just in Cape Breton, as I don't have family involved in this issue anywhere else, but I have very little sympathy for them.

We have the exact same thing here in NZ...

Lost Marine, on Dec 24 2008, 07:17 AM, said:

Cougar, on Aug 22 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

Read 'Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee' that should give a certain perspective - you'd never worry about anything the aboriginal people did again I think, you'd be to busy struggling with the weight of your own guilt.

I think the protest is legitimate, it's not like they are beating the kids.

What guilt? I wasn't at Wounded Knee why I should I carry guilt over it? It happened, it was deplorable, and I was no part of it, just like I was no part of the massacre at My Lai. I'll just make sure I never participate in anything like it and continue to be guilt free.

If I had been there and done that I'm sure I would have been ashamed about my actions but it's a moot point. This whole your ancestors did this bs is stupid, show me one nation on this Earth that doesn't have some terrible acts lurking in its past.

Moody, on Dec 22 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

US Govt should give back the US to the American Indians, and anyone who isn't an American Indian should have to move out of the country.

Ok, but we're taking all our toys with us.


OT- The government doesn't own the land, their lease is not being renewed, so they have no right to be holding classes in that building. So some kids can't get to the art class or something, it's not like they're dragging them out back and shooting them in the head. Seems just like an eviction to me, you don't let the tenants back in the building you've evicted them from after they're kicked out.

Damn straight.

Adjutant Stormy, on Dec 30 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

Guns. Problem solved.

Arm you children, little Canucks, that they may attend school in peace.

But seriously, the Native Americans are just whiners. They feel the need to control anything even tangentially involving them.

And they play the "You took my land" card all the time. Boo farging hoo.

We should have taken ALL the land in the first place.

Also QFT.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Lost Marine, on Dec 23 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

Cougar, on Aug 22 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

Read 'Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee' that should give a certain perspective - you'd never worry about anything the aboriginal people did again I think, you'd be to busy struggling with the weight of your own guilt.

I think the protest is legitimate, it's not like they are beating the kids.

What guilt? I wasn't at Wounded Knee why I should I carry guilt over it? It happened, it was deplorable, and I was no part of it, just like I was no part of the massacre at My Lai. I'll just make sure I never participate in anything like it and continue to be guilt free.

If I had been there and done that I'm sure I would have been ashamed about my actions but it's a moot point. This whole your ancestors did this bs is stupid, show me one nation on this Earth that doesn't have some terrible acts lurking in its past.

zactly what I was going to type in reply to Cougar. Long ago events, set in motion generations before my own by ancestors with completely different beliefs and values. "bury my heart at wounded knee" has nothing at all (in my opinion) to do with the school/onramp situation.

Fact of the matter is, the gov't definitely provided some serious benefits to the reservation in exchange for them granting that lease. Now in classic first nations ungrateful style, they blockade the school to blackmail even MORE benefits out of the gov't.

Lost Marine, on Dec 23 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

OT- The government doesn't own the land, their lease is not being renewed, so they have no right to be holding classes in that building. So some kids can't get to the art class or something, it's not like they're dragging them out back and shooting them in the head. Seems just like an eviction to me, you don't let the tenants back in the building you've evicted them from after they're kicked out.

See above. It was a joint lease thing...and there's no way the first nation didn't receive sizeable monetary compensation for the use of their land.