[Ammanas]

I found it interesting that the Hounds of Light hated Tulas Shorn so much. In GOTM, the HoS seemed to relish the possibility of killing Rake and it didn't seem like ST had given any orders to the Hounds to attack Rake. They went after Hairlock and Rake was just a "bonus", so to speak.

So, shadow hates darkness and light hates shadow.

Also, Shorn recalls being the first ruler of shadow and training the Hounds. Don't have the page numbers but he tells ST that his "rule was cut short and he was of a mind to contest ST for the throne."

I wonder if Edgewalker was around when Shorn was ruler?

[fafner]

maybe they just hate the other dogs masters/trainers

[HoosierDaddy]

Ammanas;368908 said:

I found it interesting that the Hounds of Light hated Tulas Shorn so much. In GOTM, the HoS seemed to relish the possibility of killing Rake and it didn't seem like ST had given any orders to the Hounds to attack Rake. They went after Hairlock and Rake was just a "bonus", so to speak.

So, shadow hates darkness and light hates shadow.

Also, Shorn recalls being the first ruler of shadow and training the Hounds. Don't have the page numbers but he tells ST that his "rule was cut short and he was of a mind to contest ST for the throne."

I wonder if Edgewalker was around when Shorn was ruler?

The emnity between Andii, Edur, and Liosan is described in this book as having begun the moment the other races of Tiste began. They fought cataclysmic wars against each other, so I imagine the hatred was somewhat ingrained in them, at least it seemed to be ingrained in the Edur and Liosan have become complete isolationists.

Edgewalker is "an Elder Force", so yes, he was around. It is described in the prologue to Reaper's Gale, when Kilmandaros and Rake begin cleansing Emurlahn, that "Edgewalker is committed elsewhere."

[Ammanas]

HoosierDaddy;368923 said:

The emnity between Andii, Edur, and Liosan is described in this book as having begun the moment the other races of Tiste began. They fought cataclysmic wars against each other, so I imagine the hatred was somewhat ingrained in them, at least it seemed to be ingrained in the Edur and Liosan have become complete isolationists.

Edgewalker is "an Elder Force", so yes, he was around. It is described in the prologue to Reaper's Gale, when Kilmandaros and Rake begin cleansing Emurlahn, that "Edgewalker is committed elsewhere."

True, but the Liosan in HoC outright said that they tolerated the Edur because "there was something of Father Light in them." That's why I found it odd the Hounds wanted to attack(and only attack) the Edur Shorn.My assumption is that hounds of light have a Liosan master. It would be a nice plot reversal if the HoL master was not Liosan and/or Osric. But my money is on Osric.

[HoosierDaddy]

Ammanas;368929 said:

True, but the Liosan in HoC outright said that they tolerated the Edur because "there was something of Father Light in them." That's why I found it odd the Hounds wanted to attack(and only attack) the Edur Shorn.My assumption is that hounds of light have a light master just as shadow hounds have a shadow master. It would be a nice plot reversal if the HoL master was not Liosan.

Note: The Hounds of Shadow's master is yourself, ST. It could easily be someone who is not Tiste at all. Kurald Liosan, or Kurald Thryllen currently has no ruler with Osserc missing.

Also, the Hounds of Light were obviously there as a plant, they seemed to somehow provde the anchor for the other Hounds arrivals in Darujhistan at the end of TTH. If they are there as a plant they have no reason to attack Shadowthrone, Cots, or Dassem (who they needed to get rid of Rake).

[Ammanas]

HoosierDaddy;368931 said:

Note: The Hounds of Shadow's master is yourself, ST. It could easily be someone who is not Tiste at all. Kurald Liosan, or Kurald Thryllen currently has no ruler with Osserc missing.

Also, the Hounds of Light were obviously there as a plant, they seemed to somehow provde the anchor for the other Hounds arrivals in Darujhistan at the end of TTH. If they are there as a plant they have no reason to attack Shadowthrone, Cots, or Dassem (who they needed to get rid of Rake).

Osric isn't missing. He's hiding, IIRC. I thought Loric firmly established the Liosan are unaware of that fact. Altho I will admit I'm unclear who the Liosan are worshipping since Loric's familar was killed.

And IIRC, the Hounds of Shadow were in Daru long before the HoL.

[HoosierDaddy]

Ammanas;368939 said:

Osric isn't missing. He's hiding, IIRC. I thought Loric firmly established the Liosan are unaware of that fact. Altho I will admit I'm unclear who the Liosan are worshipping since Loric's familar was killed.

And IIRC, the Hounds of Shadow were in Daru long before the HoL.

Osserc is not hiding. He is missing, that fragment in HoC where he rescues L'oric remains one of the most confusing scenes in the series, as he is definitely missing.

I'm pretty sure the Hounds all arrived together to escort Dassem to Darujhistan, before he meets up with Karsa.

[Kurt Montandon]

HoosierDaddy;368951 said:

Osserc is not hiding. He is missing, that fragment in HoC where he rescues L'oric remains one of the most confusing scenes in the series, as he is definitely missing.

He's missing according to other people, not according to himself. I'm sure he knows exactly where he is, both in relation to himself and the world(s) around him.

[HoosierDaddy]

Kurt Montandon;368988 said:

He's missing according to other people, not according to himself. I'm sure he knows exactly where he is, both in relation to himself and the world(s) around him.

That is confusing as hell. I might know where I am, but if I am unable to communicate my location, or find anyone else to talk to, no one else will know where I am.

[Ammanas]

HoosierDaddy;368990 said:

That is confusing as hell. I might know where I am, but if I am unable to communicate my location, or find anyone else to talk to, no one else will know where I am.

Hee, hee. What a predicament!

Does anyone have crazy theories as to the identity of the HoL master?

[Battalion]

Could be one of those little demon things. In HoC those Liosen were worshiping Loric's familier if I rmember well. Might be one of them things.

[Abyss]

couple of points...

- Pallid and Lock were 'plants', it appears - which is to say they were working for ST and Cot but it seems out of convenience, not servitude as the HoS seem to be in, altho Shorn thought the two HoL were there as a warning, possibly to ST and Cot. Of course, it follows that we wonder, 'warning from whom'. The other HoL showing up seemed like a player taking advantage of an opportunity more than a planned attack.

- Then again, it did seem as tho Baran's attack on Pallid was planned, tho whether that was planned by ST or planned by Baran is up for debate - the second the Hounds hit Darujhistan, the HoS turned on the two HoL.

- Shorn was 'a' ruler of Shadow, but it's pretty clear theye were many, probably even before Scabby pulled his coup and shed draconic blood, wounding KE. Shorn MAY have been the target of that, or may not.

- In TB Edgy SAYS he's an 'elemental force', implying he's an elder god - he could be lying, exagerrating or misleading. If he's THAT powerful, why is he enslaved by Shadow to guard the borders of the warren fragment that became Meanas, and even then, he didn't oppose ST and Cot's takeover.

- It does appear that at some points both Edgy and Shorn were in positions of power, but Shorn's narrative is vague, also painting his as a sort of mad scientist soletaken amongst the edur.

- Father Light is still unaccounted for. Ossi didn't seem interested in a 'seize power' plot the way the narrative implies the HoL's master was after Dragnipur.

- Abyss, dislikes light beer...

[Ammanas]

Abyss;369145 said:

couple of points...

- Pallid and Lock were 'plants', it appears - which is to say they were working for ST and Cot but it seems out of convenience, not servitude as the HoS seem to be in, altho Shorn thought the two HoL were there as a warning, possibly to ST and Cot. Of course, it follows that we wonder, 'warning from whom'. The other HoL showing up seemed like a player taking advantage of an opportunity more than a planned attack.

- Then again, it did seem as tho Baran's attack on Pallid was planned, tho whether that was planned by ST or planned by Baran is up for debate - the second the Hounds hit Darujhistan, the HoS turned on the two HoL.

- Shorn was 'a' ruler of Shadow, but it's pretty clear theye were many, probably even before Scabby pulled his coup and shed draconic blood, wounding KE. Shorn MAY have been the target of that, or may not.

- In TB Edgy SAYS he's an 'elemental force', implying he's an elder god - he could be lying, exagerrating or misleading. If he's THAT powerful, why is he enslaved by Shadow to guard the borders of the warren fragment that became Meanas, and even then, he didn't oppose ST and Cot's takeover.

- It does appear that at some points both Edgy and Shorn were in positions of power, but Shorn's narrative is vague, also painting his as a sort of mad scientist soletaken amongst the edur.

- Father Light is still unaccounted for. Ossi didn't seem interested in a 'seize power' plot the way the narrative implies the HoL's master was after Dragnipur.

- Abyss, dislikes light beer...

Man, you just keep earning rep, not that you need any. Light beer blows.

Anyway, Shorn recalled himself as the original master of shadow and the trainer of the HoS. Also, Silann recalled Shorn as "not being peaceful."

I agree--Osric seemed perfectly happy to be missing or lost and not at all interested in a power play, so I need to recant "my money is on Osric" statement.

Last point--I'll look up the quote/pg number when I get home but there was a reference to Osric's brood and a yet, as unseen daughter--Breda Devith or something like that. Maybe she's master of HoL.
Course, it's a real stretch to assume she's the master of HoL but I'm nothing if not elastic.

[eekwibble]

The HoS weren't too thrilled to see Shorn either. Cot said something aboot them not being enamoured of his 'undead'ness.
He and ST didn't really challenge the appearance of the HoL but, to be honest, if you had a posse of five massive, killer doggies and they didn't see fit to question the arrival of two more massive, killer doggies - beyond a bit of playful doggie banter - you wouldn't, would you? :outta:
Shorn said he took the HoS out of the wild and trained them but not that he was the 'original ruler' of Shadow. I'm bearing in mind that his rule was 'cut short' though, and he's a fucking soletaken dragon, so the usurper must've been pretty badass.
Not sure who or what EW(sic) (lol, 'sic':falco:) is but as to his opposing/not opposing ST and Cot's ascension:

NoK spoiler

Spoiler

He was engaged elsewhere again. Supposedly to fight the Stormriders although all he seemed to be doing was standing around telling a little girl to fuck off out of his realm.

I still think Osserc's no.1 choice for the HoL's master.
I think HD was wrong, He's not missing, he is hiding, but from what I couldn't say with certainty. He couldn't give a shit aboot his fanatical Liosan followers and he's had a few run-ins with Rake and Rake now (at the start of TtH) has Dragni so take your pick (my money's on Ossy's disappearance coinciding with Rake's acquisition of said dread sword).
All the Ascendants/Gods/people-with-half-a-brain seem to be able to sense a convergence, and who is converging, so wherever Ossy is/was he could have anticipated the Dassem/Rake clash and acted to take advantage of Rake's demise should it be affected.
That fits with HD's Pallid/Lock=anchor theory too, a bit.

[Morgoth]

Wouldn't it be somewhat logical if the master was the CG? IT's been speculated a lot upon how the Liosan seem ripe to become another proxy of the CG. Ever since HOC really

[Grief]

Abyss;369145 said:

- In TB Edgy SAYS he's an 'elemental force', implying he's an elder god - he could be lying, exagerrating or misleading. If he's THAT powerful, why is he enslaved by Shadow to guard the borders of the warren fragment that became Meanas, and even then, he didn't oppose ST and Cot's takeover.

Perhaps he fell out of worship. Elder Gods power relies on worship(although not sure about draconus, who seems to have some power anyhow, perhaps deriving from the fact hes a draconic soletaken?). K'rul tells us that Elder gods without worship can die, just by being forgotten. Pretty much what happens to K'rul, before blood is spilled on sanctified ground. Perhaps this was happening to EW, so he decided to serve shadow, for the little power it gave him, and letting him avoid being forgotten. After all, he's dead, as Cotillion tells us, so perhaps with his death his worship waned, so he chose to serve shadow, for the little power needed for his life.

My main point is that he isnt neccesarily "THAT" powerful.

As for who the HoL are serving, "brother light" who's up in the moon is also a possibility. The moon is breaking, allowing him to become more active, and use the HoL.

[Tapper]

Read back on the scene where Ditch and I think Draconus talk - it goes something like this:
"If you could have escaped Dragnipur, would you?"
"It would be the logical thing to do, aye."
"Are you a logical man, Draconus?"
"Not in the slightest."

I think the same may go for Edgewalker as well. Look at Mael, hiding as a manservant, the Sister of Cold Nights (she was cursed of course, but was said to wander amongst men even before her curse) walking the world, et cetera. It seems the Elder Gods not only disappeared, they also gave up their places of prominence, probably for a goal, possibly because they just got bored.

[Ammanas]

Tapper;369300 said:

Read back on the scene where Ditch and I think Draconus talk - it goes something like this:
"If you could have escaped Dragnipur, would you?"
"It would be the logical thing to do, aye."
"Are you a logical man, Draconus?"
"Not in the slightest."

I think the same may go for Edgewalker as well. Look at Mael, hiding as a manservant, the Sister of Cold Nights (she was cursed of course, but was said to wander amongst men even before her curse) walking the world, et cetera. It seems the Elder Gods not only disappeared, they also gave up their places of prominence, probably for a goal, possibly because they just got bored.

Have rep--even Rake served as a bodyguard for a century or something.