[Cutt3r]

When reading a thread (can't remember which) I was struck by a sudden thought. I still believe Karsa will appear in future books (malazan or not) and I think that I know how he will die.

I recalled back in HoC, Calm tells Karsa's two companions that when she next comes, for them to step aside. The two now dwell in his sword. I think that when Karsa next meets Calm, his sword will abandon him, leaving him defenseless.

Karsa dies.

Does this sound even remotely possible, or has it been ruled out by something I've failed to miss?

[Dance]

Defenseless?

He took out a Deragoth with his bare hands.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cutt3r;354870 said:

When reading a thread (can't remember which) I was struck by a sudden thought. I still believe Karsa will appear in future books (malazan or not) and I think that I know how he will die.

I recalled back in HoC, Calm tells Karsa's two companions that when she next comes, for them to step aside. The two now dwell in his sword. I think that when Karsa next meets Calm, his sword will abandon him, leaving him defenseless.

Karsa dies.

Does this sound even remotely possible, or has it been ruled out by something I've failed to miss?

Well, Calm told Karsa that he/she'd meet him again and that the fate of the world would be at hand. I don't think that means Karsa has to die, rather it means he'll face a decision that will decide the fate of "the world."

His sword is indestructible and an immobile object. The fact that his two Teblor friends are in there doesn't make it a cognizant object such that it can leave him defenseless. He is the master of it.

Karsa will appear in future books: according to S.E., ICE will pick up the Karsa & Tyrant plots.

[Optimus Prime]

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Karsa will appear in future books: according to S.E., ICE will pick up the Karsa & Tyrant plots.

Really? Cool.

If Karsa goes down it will be epic....I think he's toast eventually too. Don't see too many of the "main" characters living much longer.

[kalmavet7]

HoosierDaddy;354874 said:

Karsa will appear in future books: according to S.E., ICE will pick up the Karsa & Tyrant plots.

Excellent! that makes me feel better about the lack of Tyrant resolution in TTH

[Terez]

Before I finished the book, I saw the title of this thread while viewing the who's online page, and I was pissed. And of course surprised that Karsa lived while so many others died...

[HoosierDaddy]

Oooh - the false-spoiler. I did that earlier when theorizing on the contents of TtH.

[Cutt3r]

HoosierDaddy;354874 said:

Well, Calm told Karsa that he/she'd meet him again and that the fate of the world would be at hand. I don't think that means Karsa has to die, rather it means he'll face a decision that will decide the fate of "the world."

His sword is indestructible and an immobile object. The fact that his two Teblor friends are in there doesn't make it a cognizant object such that it can leave him defenseless. He is the master of it.

Karsa will appear in future books: according to S.E., ICE will pick up the Karsa & Tyrant plots.

No, that doesn't quite sound right. In the HoC, Calm tells that when they meet again, for Delord and Bairsa (whatever) to stand aside or be killed. Why should they stand aside if all she wants is Karsa to face a decision. It doesn't make sense.

As for taking out the Deragoth, I seem to remember him having that new stone sword and being weaponless versus a Forkassail is being defenseless, not that a weapon would help much either.

[Cougar]

Cutt3r;355709 said:

No, that doesn't quite sound right. In the HoC, Calm tells that when they meet again, for Delord and Bairsa (whatever) to stand aside or be killed. Why should they stand aside if all she wants is Karsa to face a decision. It doesn't make sense.

Well we don't know how much of the future Calm can see, if she doesn't know anything beyond the fact that she will meet Karsa again and it will be important/very violent she will tell them they need to stand aside. She may have had no idea that by that time they would both be dead, it could be a warning she woul dhave given to anyone with Karsa. Also remember that the reasoning and personalities of the Fokrul Assail are totally alien to humans and her words may need to be taken with a pinch of salt

[drinksinbars]

does that mean we arent seeing karsa in anymore of the fallen books?? or anyone in darujhistan for that matter?

[Cougar]

I'm not sure where Hoosier is getting his info from, SE said ICE would pick up the Tyrant plot thread, but I didn't catch the point about Karsa. I'd be highly surprised if Karsa hadn't got a key role to play before the end of tCG.

[polishgenius]

It seems logical, because we know we're not coming back to Genebakis before the end of the series, and Karsa's plotline couldn't possibly fit in it anyway. Possibly Karsa (and now Kallor, since he has plans that are initially similar but different when it gets right down to it) will be involved in the ICE book in Darujhistan then go on to be in SE's apparent coming post-series non-Rake trilogy. But that's pure speculation.

[Terez]

We're not going back to Genebackis, but I don't see why you think Karsa's plot would be confined there, now that he's had his message from Picker/Toc/the gods of war/Hood, and I don't see why you think his plot wouldn't fit in.

Karsa's needed to kill a god. That could happen anywhere.

EDIT: Does anyone remember any of the vows Karsa has made? I'm horrible at remembering stuff like this, but I get the feeling we're supposed to know which vow Picker was talking about:

Chapter 24 said:

'The message,' Karsa growled.
'Right. It's this. You must not leave Darujhistan.'
'And if I do?'
'Then you will have lost your one opportunity to fulfill a vow you once made.'

So, killing this god, whichever god it is, will fulfill a vow Karsa made. Which god has Karsa vowed to kill?

[polishgenius]

But he was told to stay in Daru to kill said god. Plus he needs to at least head back Teblor way. Whether or not he raises his army and attempts to destroy the world is a different matter, but I'm not sure that can all fit in with the SE books.

That said, the only god-specific vow I can recall Karsa making is to do with the CG (I can't remember if it was in HoC talking to the T'lan or at the end of RG talking to him face-to-face), something to do with stopping him if he tries to enslave people. So you could be right.

[Terez]

polishgenius;355876 said:

But he was told to stay in Daru to kill said god.

I assumed he was told not to leave Darujhistan because there are some conspirators there he needs to conspire with, not because that's where he's going to kill the god.

polishgenius said:

Plus he needs to at least head back Teblor way. Whether or not he raises his army and attempts to destroy the world is a different matter, but I'm not sure that can all fit in with the SE books.

The Teblor people may be put on hold for a while, and they may come into the plot with the god-killing - but if he does go to his people, then he'll be leaving Darujhistan.

polishgenius said:

That said, the only god-specific vow I can recall Karsa making is to do with the CG (I can't remember if it was in HoC talking to the T'lan or at the end of RG talking to him face-to-face), something to do with stopping him if he tries to enslave people. So you could be right.

That's what I was thinking - I can't recall any other god that he's had a major confrontation with (several ascendants, but no other 'gods' that I can recall), but my memory of what has happened so far in the series is really horrible. It's not at the end of RG, though - I checked. No vows.

[kalmavet7]

Isn't the vow Karsa made in reference to Torvald Nom, who helped him out twice (i think)? if Karsa leaves Daru, he'll have lost that opportunity. I'm almost positive (which really means nothing haha) that he made some sort of vow to Torvald

[Dance]

Cutt3r;355709 said:

As for taking out the Deragoth, I seem to remember him having that new stone sword and being weaponless versus a Forkassail is being defenseless, not that a weapon would help much either.

He kills one of the Deragoth without his sword - he strangles it barehanded and then crushes the throat.

FAs don't exactly "automatically win" - two demons in MT toss Serenity around like it's nothing, and we know Calm was taken down before when she was imprisoned. They are tremendously skilled and powerful fighters, but there's ample cases of ancient powers getting manhandled by "lesser" beings (Quick Ben vs the three sisters, Apsalar vs hounds, sappers w/munitions vs anyone). Karsa vs Calm would be epic, but I hardly think Calm would win easily.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Terez;355386 said:

Before I finished the book, I saw the title of this thread while viewing the who's online page, and I was pissed. And of course surprised that Karsa lived while so many others died...

Me too. I almost had to crack some skulls. Glad i didn't, now that I know it's a false spoiler.

[HoosierDaddy]

Dance;356273 said:

He kills one of the Deragoth without his sword - he strangles it barehanded and then crushes the throat.

FAs don't exactly "automatically win" - two demons in MT toss Serenity around like it's nothing, and we know Calm was taken down before when she was imprisoned. They are tremendously skilled and powerful fighters, but there's ample cases of ancient powers getting manhandled by "lesser" beings (Quick Ben vs the three sisters, Apsalar vs hounds, sappers w/munitions vs anyone). Karsa vs Calm would be epic, but I hardly think Calm would win easily.

1. Quick Ben took them by surprise. It was Fid's cusser that shreaded Sheltatha and Sheltatha herself that put the killing blow on Menandore. Sukul kept right on keeping on.
2. Apsalar was possessed by the God of Assassin's and retains much of those ascendant skills. She may in fact be ascendant.
3. Well, grenades would tend to cause a lot of damange in massed medieval infantry. Or, if you mean Silchas, same thing with #1.

It is Calm's stunning speed that would give it a chance agaisnt Karsa. But, he'd probably take it now I would imagine. But only if he had his swordy on him.

[Dance]

HoosierDaddy;356561 said:

1. Quick Ben took them by surprise. It was Fid's cusser that shreaded Sheltatha and Sheltatha herself that put the killing blow on Menandore. Sukul kept right on keeping on.
2. Apsalar was possessed by the God of Assassin's and retains much of those ascendant skills. She may in fact be ascendant.
3. Well, grenades would tend to cause a lot of damange in massed medieval infantry. Or, if you mean Silchas, same thing with #1.

What I meant more was that ancient powers aren't necessarily more powerful then contemporary ones.

There is a fairly prevalent theme in fantasy where the old is greater then the new. I think SE hints at this slightly throughout his work (probably to make it more stunning when he completely ignores it later), with the Jaghut, KCCM, Anomandar Rake, and other legends. But one of the (newer) themes is that these ancient powers - while being extremely, extremely strong - aren't automatically beating the new, even in straight up contests. Tayschenn stands up to AR in GotM. Three Seguleh take out a KCCM hunter with ease. Whiskeyjack schools Kallor before his leg gives out. Dassem rivals Hood.

For my examples above - Quick Ben didn't really take them by surprise. It wasn't an ambush - they knew he was there, they just didn't realize that he could stand up to them and toss them around like kittens. Underestimated yes.

Apsalar is probably ascendant or close to it, but that's not an issue - Dancer himself is fairly young by the world's standards, Apsalar more so. The fact that she can go up against 7 Hounds of Shadow speaks volumes.

The overall point I'm getting out, however, is that I think we give the FA (and a lot of other ancient powers) too much credit. Yes, they are old and extremely capable fighters, but we really haven't seen one in extensive action - Calm fights three young, unready TTTs. Serenity fights well, but two demon princes run him off. The action so far doesn't back up the mythos built around them.

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It is Calm's stunning speed that would give it a chance agaisnt Karsa. But, he'd probably take it now I would imagine. But only if he had his swordy on him.

Icarium is faster then Calm, if we take Karsa's thoughts to be gospel. That leads me to put FAs below the "top tier" fighters, though just slightly.

I still think Karsa barehanded is much more dangerous then people give him credit for.