[Malaclypse]

[quote name='D'rek' date='31 October 2009 - 04:59 AM' timestamp='1256965157' post='696238']
[quote name='Hetan' date='30 October 2009 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1256926803' post='695989']
[quote name='Wampyry' date='25 August 2009 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1251240905' post='667706']
[quote='Erayle']another question o.O
just finished re-reading RG and i came across this part, when Taralack Veed was thinking back on the history of his people, how they served Dessimbelackis, and the story about a squad of Gral killing off the remenants of the Eres'al, save for a small girl - the last of her kind. then a shadowy figure with seven hounds comes and saves her. if i'm correct Dessimbelackis (or however you spell his name) came before the Emperor, so Shadowthrone didn't ascend yet....so who is this guy?[/quote]

[quote]The man is Dessimbelackis, not sure of the hounds. Believe they are the Deragoth since Dessi made a deal with them. The girl is an unknown. A lot of the members think it could be Kettle - the child with 148 personalities. I dunno
[/quote]

If the child is the last of the Eres, then why would anyone think it would be anything other than the Eres'al? After all she is the last of her kind.
[/quote]

1. Because Bottle has a vision in tBH of a group of Eres, and he supposedly recognizes one of the adult women as the Eres'al, while that child would not have any other Eres to be around when adult. This can however be explained by time-travelling...

2. That child is the last of the Tasse, but who is to say that it is the last of the Eres?

3. As the Nerek believe, the Eres'al is supposed to be the *first* of the Eres, the purely most innocent of them because she is the first with true sentience. I'm rather certain this is further propagated by another character somewhere along the line (I'm thinking either Silchas Ruin or one of the T'lan Imass but not really sure). Furthermore: (TtH spoiler)
[spoiler] It is comparable to how Gothos speaks of Togg in TtH[/spoiler]
[/quote]

1. as you say, this is not evidence for anything.

2. read the description of the Eres (time travelling rapist) and of the Tasse, pasted below - I think it's obvious that the Tasse are a remnant group of Eres.

[quote]Tall, lithe with strangely small hands and feet, they had elongated faces, weak chins and oversized teeth. Their eyes were close-set, the irises tawny like dried grass, the whites blistered with so many blood vessels it seemed they might well weep red tears.
Among all four of the Tasse the signs of dehydration and malnutrition were obvious, and as fighters they had been singularly ineffective with their stone-tipped spears and knotted clubs.
[/quote]

3. Nerek beliefs, like Letherii and Edur beliefs, are likely to be less than completely accurate. In any case, time-travelling could account for anything along those lines. Regarding your spoiler, could you be more specific? I don't recall that bit and I'm interested.

edit: also when Dessimbelackis is talking to the Gral who was exterminating the Tasse, he says the following:

[quote]They were the last. I do not decry your slaughter. They lived in fear. This land -- not their home -- could not feed them. Abandoned by the Deragoth and their kind, they had failed in life’s struggle.”[/quote]

Earlier in the book (RG) Ganath talks about how the Eres were domesticated by the Deragoth. The pieces are all there - you just need to put them together.

[D'rek]

Malaclypse, on 31 October 2009 - 11:39 AM, said:

2. read the description of the Eres (time travelling rapist) and of the Tasse, pasted below - I think it's obvious that the Tasse are a remnant group of Eres.

Quote

Tall, lithe with strangely small hands and feet, they had elongated faces, weak chins and oversized teeth. Their eyes were close-set, the irises tawny like dried grass, the whites blistered with so many blood vessels it seemed they might well weep red tears.
Among all four of the Tasse the signs of dehydration and malnutrition were obvious, and as fighters they had been singularly ineffective with their stone-tipped spears and knotted clubs.

What I mean is that the last Tasse does not mean they are the last of all Eres' close descendants. After the Tasse are extinct the Nerek and other close descendants of the Eres can still exist.

Malaclypse, on 31 October 2009 - 11:39 AM, said:

3. Nerek beliefs, like Letherii and Edur beliefs, are likely to be less than completely accurate. In any case, time-travelling could account for anything along those lines. Regarding your spoiler, could you be more specific? I don't recall that bit and I'm interested.

edit: also when Dessimbelackis is talking to the Gral who was exterminating the Tasse, he says the following:

Quote

They were the last. I do not decry your slaughter. They lived in fear. This land -- not their home -- could not feed them. Abandoned by the Deragoth and their kind, they had failed in life’s struggle.”

Earlier in the book (RG) Ganath talks about how the Eres were domesticated by the Deragoth. The pieces are all there - you just need to put them together.

[spoiler]
It's about how the first of a species is considered by the descendants as pure and ideal so it gets raised to godhood and power. Togg was the first of the wolves, but im sure this is broughty up elsewhere for the Eres'al being the first innocent/sentient/pure Eres and hence her power and uniqueness.

[Malaclypse]

D, on 01 November 2009 - 04:43 AM, said:

What I mean is that the last Tasse does not mean they are the last of all Eres' close descendants. After the Tasse are extinct the Nerek and other close descendants of the Eres can still exist.

[spoiler]
It's about how the first of a species is considered by the descendants as pure and ideal so it gets raised to godhood and power. Togg was the first of the wolves, but im sure this is broughty up elsewhere for the Eres'al being the first innocent/sentient/pure Eres and hence her power and uniqueness.

Your point being that the Eres'al we know from the main series could be someone other than the child Dessimbelackis saves? Possible, but unlikely IMO - there's no point to this scene if that child is not the Eres'al. In any case, it hardly matters, except that the question of what that scene was all about remains unanswered if you think the child is not the Eres'al. Of course the Nerek can still exist, they're human - have you failed to understand that the evolutionary progression goes like this: Eres - Imass - human? Presumably, the Tasse somehow remained isolated and did not mix (much) with their descendants. Anatomically modern humans have been present in the archaeological record from more than 100 000 years ago and Neandertals persisted until 30 000 years ago...most likely both descended from Homo erectus (the real-world analogue for Eres, if that wasn't clear) independently. Just because a new species has arisen doesn't mean that its progenitor species has to be extinct In short, what's your point? Playing Devil's Advocate is only useful up to a point - what's your alternative interpretation?

Thanks for the clarification re: Togg and being 'first' - I just don't think it applies here. Her power/uniqueness comes just as easily by being the last and travelling through time - better in fact, as far as I'm concerned. She's so lonely and fixated on humankind because her own kind only exist in the past.

as far as you being 'sure' of something that has bearing on this discussion - prove it, I'm not going to take your word for it. This is one of the reasons why I don't get involved on the forum these days, especially the book forums - I just don't understand why people assert things without referring to the books for evidence. If you don't have proof then you're not entitled to say you're sure of something. Fullstop.

Please forgive my abrasive manner of argument. It just comes out this way and I mean no disrespect. I'm attacking your argument, not you

edit: regarding the Nerek, they are so far removed from the Eres (the race) that it's almost certain (IMO) that they came to worship the Eres'al through contact with the time-traveller Eres who has a crush on Bottle rather than some epic racial memory that somehow survives transition to another species entirely.

[amphibian]

Malaclypse, on 31 October 2009 - 11:39 AM, said:

1. as you say, this is not evidence for anything.

Hm? It's the identification of a character who has spent considerable time - ahem - communicating with the Eres'al. I don't think that's completely worthless.

Quote

2. read the description of the Eres (time travelling rapist) and of the Tasse, pasted below - I think it's obvious that the Tasse are a remnant group of Eres.

I thought of the Tasse as a different species altogether - one caused by drastic inbreeding between humans domesticated by the Deragoth. The physical characteristics described seem to correlate with the "common" signs of inbreeding on a genetically disastrous scale. Furthermore, the Eres'al has fur and there's no mention of fur regarding the Tasse.

Malaclypse, on 01 November 2009 - 04:40 PM, said:

Of course the Nerek can still exist, they're human - have you failed to understand that the evolutionary progression goes like this: Eres - Imass - human? Presumably, the Tasse somehow remained isolated and did not mix (much) with their descendants. Anatomically modern humans have been present in the archaeological record from more than 100 000 years ago and Neandertals persisted until 30 000 years ago...most likely both descended from Homo erectus (the real-world analogue for Eres, if that wasn't clear) independently. Just because a new species has arisen doesn't mean that its progenitor species has to be extinct.

There were multiple hominid species going at various and often concurrent times in our planet's history. I'm of the opinion that the Tasse are not Eres, but rather some kind of evolutionary degenerate. However, that doesn't really matter here - what matters is what Erikson/ICE had in mind when this was set up. Which leads me to my next point:

Quote

As far as you being 'sure' of something that has bearing on this discussion - prove it, I'm not going to take your word for it. This is one of the reasons why I don't get involved on the forum these days, especially the book forums - I just don't understand why people assert things without referring to the books for evidence. If you don't have proof then you're not entitled to say you're sure of something. Fullstop.

I have a small problem with you saying this. It's good to push for support of arguments, but you have a degree of access to Erikson/ICE and their works that most of us don't enjoy. I suspect that at least some of your arguments are based on a sense of how their minds work - and we don't have access to that. I'm more than willing to give credence to well reasoned arguments that do have basis in the books - and HD did identify a possible weakness in the child saved by Dessimbelackis = Eres'al theory.

If you're ticked off about the method of discourse, please continue to set good examples of how you'd like things to go. Doing something proactively > complaining about it.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 01 November 2009 - 07:18 PM

[Malaclypse]

as this is getting increasingly complicated, my responses in red.

amphibian, on 01 November 2009 - 06:53 PM, said:

Malaclypse, on 31 October 2009 - 11:39 AM, said:

1. as you say, this is not evidence for anything.

Hm? It's the identification of a character who has spent considerable time - ahem - communicating with the Eres'al. I don't think that's completely worthless.

D'rek admits that this vision of Bottle's could be accounted for by time-travelling, thus thoroughly compromising the value of the scene as 'evidence' of the Eres'al having lived among others of her kind from the beginning. In case you missed it, we're debating whether or not the female Tasse in BH was the Eres'al. Your point is irrelevant.

Quote

2. read the description of the Eres (time travelling rapist) and of the Tasse, pasted below - I think it's obvious that the Tasse are a remnant group of Eres.

I thought of the Tasse as a different species altogether - one caused by drastic inbreeding between humans domesticated by the Deragoth. The physical characteristics described seem to correlate with the "common" signs of inbreeding on a genetically disastrous scale. Furthermore, the Eres'al has fur and there's no mention of fur regarding the Tasse.

Nobody, prior to this scene, mentions the possibility that humans could have been domesticated by the Deragoth, whereas Osserc first talks about it as a possibility in HoC:

Quote

‘What of those halfhumans
that ran with these Deragoth?’
‘A quaint reversal, wouldn’t you say? The Deragoth’s only act of
domestication. Most scholars, in their species-bound arrogance, believe
that humans domesticated dogs, but it may well have been the other
way round, at least to start. Who ran with whom?’
‘But those creatures aren’t humans. They’re not even Imass.’
‘No, but they will be, one day. I’ve seen others, scampering on the
edges of wolf packs. Standing upright gives them better vision, a
valuable asset to complement the wolves’ superior hearing and sense of
smell. A formidable combination, but the wolves are the ones in charge.

and Ganath speaks of it as a certainty in BH:

Quote

“Yes,” Ganath agreed, “the Eres’al, who were led unto domestication by the Hounds that adopted them. The Eres’al, who would one day give rise to the Imass, who would one day give rise to humans.”

If you still prefer to believe that humans were domesticated by the Deragoth, go right ahead. Given the size of the Tasse community they would certainly have been inbred as well, though I refute the notion of 'common signs of inbreeding' (whatever they are) applying in this case.

The description of the Tasse (bolds mine):

Quote

Beneath the dusty blue paint the Tasse were physically unlike any other nearby tribes. Tall, lithe with strangely small hands and feet, they had elongated faces, weak chins and oversized teeth. Their eyes were close-set, the irises tawny like dried grass, the whites blistered with so many blood vessels it seemed they might well weep red tears.
Among all four of the Tasse the signs of dehydration and malnutrition were obvious, and as fighters they had been singularly ineffective with their stone-tipped spears and knotted clubs.

Please note that hair loss is a 'common sign' of malnutrition

The Eres as a species and the Eres'al as an individual are referred to as tall and lithe several times, 'The Tall Ones', etc. I am also informed by the fact that I know the Eres to be the Malazan version of Homo erectus, just as the Imass are Malazan Neandertals. If you care to dispute this, let's take it to another thread as this post is going to be very long already. In short, some of the diagnostic features of homo erectus are a weak/nonexistent chin, as tall as modern humans (up to 6'), large teeth (relative to AMH), and the skull being smaller would necessitate close-set eyes so you may understand why I'm convinced by this description. There are other quotes which support Eres = erectus if anybody seriosuly doubts this but I'm not going to clutter this post any further at this point...

Quote

Onrack:'Before the Imass, there was another people, older, wilder. They dwelt where it was warm, and they were tall, their dark skins covered in fine hair. These we knew as the Eres. Enclaves survived into our time...

Quote

“The Eres’al, the Tall Ones — before a single human walked this world. Before the Imass, before even the K’Chain Che’Malle" (BH UKTpb, p.536)

Quote

'Tall, lithely muscled, with a fine umber-hued pelt and long, shaggy hair reaching down past the shoulders. A woman.

Not conclusive on its own but added to the rest, I think it's obvious that the Tasse were a (barely) surviving enclave of the Eres and thus the female child goes on to become the Eres'al that features prominently in the series.

Malaclypse, on 01 November 2009 - 04:40 PM, said:

Of course the Nerek can still exist, they're human - have you failed to understand that the evolutionary progression goes like this: Eres - Imass - human? Presumably, the Tasse somehow remained isolated and did not mix (much) with their descendants. Anatomically modern humans have been present in the archaeological record from more than 100 000 years ago and Neandertals persisted until 30 000 years ago...most likely both descended from Homo erectus (the real-world analogue for Eres, if that wasn't clear) independently. Just because a new species has arisen doesn't mean that its progenitor species has to be extinct.

There were multiple hominid species going at various and often concurrent times in our planet's history. I'm of the opinion that the Tasse are not Eres, but rather some kind of evolutionary degenerate. However, that doesn't really matter here - what matters is what Erikson/ICE had in mind when this was set up. Which leads me to my next point:

Quote

As far as you being 'sure' of something that has bearing on this discussion - prove it, I'm not going to take your word for it. This is one of the reasons why I don't get involved on the forum these days, especially the book forums - I just don't understand why people assert things without referring to the books for evidence. If you don't have proof then you're not entitled to say you're sure of something. Fullstop.

I have a small problem with you saying this. It's good to push for support of arguments, but you have a degree of access to Erikson/ICE and their works that most of us don't enjoy. I suspect that at least some of your arguments are based on a sense of how their minds work - and we don't have access to that. I'm more than willing to give credence to well reasoned arguments that do have basis in the books - and HD did identify a possible weakness in the child saved by Dessimbelackis = Eres'al theory.

If you're ticked off about the method of discourse, please continue to set good examples of how you'd like things to go. Doing something proactively > complaining about it.

Your first point is rhetorical so I will move on to your 'small problem'. When I joined these forums I did not have any contact or special access and my arguments were constructed in the same way, ie., using quotes from the books as evidence - it was just more work - in fact, being knowledgeable and diligent in my research of the material is what got me access in the first place. As for my sense of how their minds work - ha, I've never even met ICE and my impression is he's pissed off at me because of my comments on RotCG - I haven't heard from him since and Steve remains one of the most inscrutable people I've ever met - I may have some small understanding of how his mind works but I'd never count on it. My background in archaeology is more useful in understanding certain things, which is not unfair...In any case, what matter the methods employed if we're trying to arrive at the most reasonable answer to the question at hand? This is not some sort of pissing contest. We should use all the resources we possess. Anyway, I wasn't aware of anything HD contributed to this debate...did you mean to say D'rek? If so, absolutely she identified weaknesses, I don't dispute that - I just maintain that the most reasonable and likely explanation of the scene in question is that the child goes on to become the Eres'al. As in life, there are few certainties in the MBotF, but we have to muddle on with 'most likelys'

Regarding doing something proactively, I believe I have already done so by providing evidence where possible rather than simply asserting I'm right as so many like to do. Where solid evidence does not exist, I make that plain and try to explain why I believe one idea over another. And yeah, I get pissed off about people including assertions of certainty in a debate without providing proof. Granted, D'rek probably didn't deserve the tone I employed in my last post but I did ask for forgiveness I'm easily irritated by stuff like this - don't forget, I've debated a lot of these things ad nauseum years ago and it's frustrating when they come up again and again and a new crop of people need to be convinced and they argue as if they could possibly know better and don't even debate properly. It's maddening. So I'm doing both - debating properly and complaining about it

I guess I'm just disappointed. I haven't been keeping up with things for a long time and I assumed that the wiki community was doing better than this.

[amphibian]

Malaclypse, on 02 November 2009 - 08:57 AM, said:

If you still prefer to believe that humans were domesticated by the Deragoth, go right ahead. Given the size of the Tasse community they would certainly have been inbred as well, though I refute the notion of 'common signs of inbreeding' (whatever they are) applying in this case.

I am certainly relying on non-textual material here for the inbreeding signs (weak chins, small heads, very skinny, not too intelligent, lots of health problems). Osserc observed the Deragoth for a while in dreams of long before humans arrived. We also know that the big bear-dogs were around at least until Dessimbelackis made a deal with them. They did coexist with humans and since the Eres had mostly died off by then, it's at least within the realm of possibility that these Tasse are humans that were incorporated into the traditional role of the Eres.

Quote

Beneath the dusty blue paint the Tasse were physically unlike any other nearby tribes. Tall, lithe with strangely small hands and feet, they had elongated faces, weak chins and oversized teeth. Their eyes were close-set, the irises tawny like dried grass, the whites blistered with so many blood vessels it seemed they might well weep red tears.
Among all four of the Tasse the signs of dehydration and malnutrition were obvious, and as fighters they had been singularly ineffective with their stone-tipped spears and knotted clubs.

Quote

Please note that hair loss is a 'common sign' of malnutrition

I've not heard of animals losing all of their fur due to malnutrition or stress. They mostly get patches and die before all the pelt is gone. The case for Tasse = degenerated Eres is certainly much stronger than what I present, but the fur thing and the Deragoth making deals with The First Emperor bugs me.

To be clear, I have zero problems acknowledging that "Tasse child is Eres" is a great theory. However, I do think that it's at least somewhat workable to say that the Eres came from elsewhere and the Tasse child is but a zoo specimen or something.

[D'rek]

Time-travel is annoying...

Okay so I've been thinking about this. So I haven't found that quote that I can vaguely remember possibly existing about the Eres'al possibly being the first sentient Eres, and I don't have a copy of TtH on me so I can't give Gothos' speech either (not that that actually affects the arguement, just for additional info' sake). So without that (and it may not exist), then via time-travel it is technically possible that the last child of the Tasse (who are certainly descendents/survivors of the Eres based on that bit about the Tasse not surviving without the Deragoth) could very well be the Eres'al, grow up, go back in time and join some other Eres/Tasse for Bottle to envision her being with, and then have a baby and start the Nerek, as well as any other past events she's said to have done.

The only thing that really gets me is Bottle's vision. It just seems odd to me that *after* (from her perspective) she becomes this time-travelling super-being she'd decide to just go hang out with a small band of other Eres and stand guard around their hut for a while. If she was intelligent like a regular human then it would be a silly/boring thing to do, but she isn't even that, she's nearly bestial in her intelligence so why would she do that when so far she's more or less always been on the move? Ignoring my whole first-Eres thing, Bottle's vision only really works for me if he was seeing the Eres'al in her "original" life, before she started jumping across time and raping Edur. but of course that is indeed just my opinion.


Addendum A: the Nerek-Eres'al quote:

Quote

'(The Nerek believe)That they were all born of a single mother, countless generations past, who was the thief of fire and walked through time, seeking that which might answer a need that consumed her – although she could never discover the nature of that need. One time, in her journey, she took within her a sacred seed, and so gave birth to a girl-child. To all outward appearances...that child was little different from her mother, for the sacredness was hidden, and so it remains hidden to this day. Within the Nerek, who are the offspring of that child...it is the female line that is taken as purest...she (the single mother) is known by a number of related names, also suggesting variations of a single person. Eres, N’eres, Eres’al.’

Addendum B: Counter to Hetan's point, far above, I believe that the beasts that show up with the man to take the last Tasse child are actually Hounds of Shadow and not Deragoth, as the man directly refers to the Deragoth abandoning the Tasse and yet makes no indication of any relation between that and the beasts around him. If he were Dessim and those were the Deragoth he made pact with, I doubt he would say it as "abandoned by the Deragoth" since it was his own shaping. Rather I think he's just the Shadowthrone of that era. Not that I have any proof or anything.

[Malaclypse]

again, my responses in red, nested quotes confuse me...

amphibian, on 04 November 2009 - 12:32 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 02 November 2009 - 08:57 AM, said:

If you still prefer to believe that humans were domesticated by the Deragoth, go right ahead. Given the size of the Tasse community they would certainly have been inbred as well, though I refute the notion of 'common signs of inbreeding' (whatever they are) applying in this case.

I am certainly relying on non-textual material here for the inbreeding signs (weak chins, small heads, very skinny, not too intelligent, lots of health problems). Osserc observed the Deragoth for a while in dreams of long before humans arrived. We also know that the big bear-dogs were around at least until Dessimbelackis made a deal with them. They did coexist with humans and since the Eres had mostly died off by then, it's at least within the realm of possibility that these Tasse are humans that were incorporated into the traditional role of the Eres.


non-textual material? meaning what? your own personal notions of what inbreeding ought to look like? Do you have any source at all for your 'signs' of inbreeding? For the record, all inbreeding really does is increase drastically the chances of rare, recessive traits being expressed, those traits generally being deleterious, but not always. Every 'purebred' animal is by definition deeply inbred, for example Anyway, I digress...Nowhere is a weak chin, a small head, thinness or reduced inteligence listed as a 'common sign' of inbreeding AFAIK - slower growth rate and smaller adult size are common signs of inbreeding but that doesn't match with the height of the Tasse. The evolutionary history of our species certainly includes episodes of inbreeding, probably very many of them, given that we've spent the vast majority of that history living in small-scale societies. In any case, the preceding rant is just for shits and giggles because even if you had a leg to stand on regarding inbreeding, I've already agreed that the Tasse would certainly have been inbred due to the small size of their community - you need at least a 1000 people for a stable gene pool and they were clearly not interbreeding with the neighbouring tribes to any significant degree.

Regarding your insistence that the Deragoth could have domesticated humans after they domesticated Eres, see the quote in my last post where Osserc talks about the Deragoth's domestication of the Eres as 'their only act of domestication' If that doesn't convince you then ask yourself what the point of the scene is if the Tasse are merely some dead-end group of degenerated humans? Just a bit of obscure Gral history to give Taralack Veed's character a bit more depth?

Quote

Beneath the dusty blue paint the Tasse were physically unlike any other nearby tribes. Tall, lithe with strangely small hands and feet, they had elongated faces, weak chins and oversized teeth. Their eyes were close-set, the irises tawny like dried grass, the whites blistered with so many blood vessels it seemed they might well weep red tears.
Among all four of the Tasse the signs of dehydration and malnutrition were obvious, and as fighters they had been singularly ineffective with their stone-tipped spears and knotted clubs.

Quote

Please note that hair loss is a 'common sign' of malnutrition

I've not heard of animals losing all of their fur due to malnutrition or stress. They mostly get patches and die before all the pelt is gone. The case for Tasse = degenerated Eres is certainly much stronger than what I present, but the fur thing and the Deragoth making deals with The First Emperor bugs me.

To be clear, I have zero problems acknowledging that "Tasse child is Eres" is a great theory. However, I do think that it's at least somewhat workable to say that the Eres came from elsewhere and the Tasse child is but a zoo specimen or something.

Right, so you're much happier believing that the Tasse are hairless because they're inbred? see above. Incidentally, the scene takes place on Seven Cities, in a desertic environment, so it could very well be that losing the body hair was an adaptation to the environment

What bugs you about the Deragoth making deals with Dessimbelackis with regard to this subject? It's a fact that the Dessimbelackis made a deal with the Deragoth - further, it's virtually certain that Dessimbelackis was their master in the end:

Quote

Osseric:‘The Hounds of Darkness. The seven beasts that Dessimbelackis made pact with – and oh, weren’t the Nameless Ones shaken by that unholy alliance? The seven beasts, L’oric, that gave the name to Seven Cities, although no memory survives of that particular truth. The Seven Holy Cities of our time are not the original ones, of course. Only the number has survived.’ (HoC UKTpb, p.607)

and from Dejim Nebrahl's memory of being caught and imprisoned:

Quote

The Dark Hounds had a master in those days, a clever master, excelled in ensnaring sorceries and, once decided upon a task, he would not relent.

Please explain the nature of your problem regarding Dessimbelackis and the Deragoth as it relates to this discussion. My goal here is to deal with this subject as definitively as possible and preserve it somewhere so we don't have to go through this again in a few weeks/months/years. I'm not saying everyone has to agree - I just want the subject exhausted. There will always be Devil's Advocates but personally, I don't find it useful to simply find a possible fault, no matter how marginal or unlikely, and leave it for others to do all the work - you need to have a viable alternative theory and defend it.



edit: cross-posted with D'rek

[Malaclypse]

D, on 04 November 2009 - 05:23 AM, said:

Time-travel is annoying...

Okay so I've been thinking about this. So I haven't found that quote that I can vaguely remember possibly existing about the Eres'al possibly being the first sentient Eres, and I don't have a copy of TtH on me so I can't give Gothos' speech either (not that that actually affects the arguement, just for additional info' sake). So without that (and it may not exist), then via time-travel it is technically possible that the last child of the Tasse (who are certainly descendents/survivors of the Eres based on that bit about the Tasse not surviving without the Deragoth) could very well be the Eres'al, grow up, go back in time and join some other Eres/Tasse for Bottle to envision her being with, and then have a baby and start the Nerek, as well as any other past events she's said to have done.

The only thing that really gets me is Bottle's vision. It just seems odd to me that *after* (from her perspective) she becomes this time-travelling super-being she'd decide to just go hang out with a small band of other Eres and stand guard around their hut for a while. If she was intelligent like a regular human then it would be a silly/boring thing to do, but she isn't even that, she's nearly bestial in her intelligence so why would she do that when so far she's more or less always been on the move? Ignoring my whole first-Eres thing, Bottle's vision only really works for me if he was seeing the Eres'al in her "original" life, before she started jumping across time and raping Edur. but of course that is indeed just my opinion.


Addendum A: the Nerek-Eres'al quote:

Quote

'(The Nerek believe)That they were all born of a single mother, countless generations past, who was the thief of fire and walked through time, seeking that which might answer a need that consumed her – although she could never discover the nature of that need. One time, in her journey, she took within her a sacred seed, and so gave birth to a girl-child. To all outward appearances...that child was little different from her mother, for the sacredness was hidden, and so it remains hidden to this day. Within the Nerek, who are the offspring of that child...it is the female line that is taken as purest...she (the single mother) is known by a number of related names, also suggesting variations of a single person. Eres, N’eres, Eres’al.’

Addendum B: Counter to Hetan's point, far above, I believe that the beasts that show up with the man to take the last Tasse child are actually Hounds of Shadow and not Deragoth, as the man directly refers to the Deragoth abandoning the Tasse and yet makes no indication of any relation between that and the beasts around him. If he were Dessim and those were the Deragoth he made pact with, I doubt he would say it as "abandoned by the Deragoth" since it was his own shaping. Rather I think he's just the Shadowthrone of that era. Not that I have any proof or anything.

Your main sticking point seems to be that the Eres acted strangely by just hanging around with her own kind in the past, doing nothing very interesting - well, she had all the time in the world and she must have been comforted spending time among her own people so I don't see any problem with that.

As previously stated, the beliefs of the Nerek, though likely rooted in fact, are also certainly distorted/embellished/stylized to a large extent. Ah hell, for the sake of argument, let's say the quoted Nerek myth is a faithul and accurate account of the origin of the Nerek as a people, what difference does it make? For me it works just as well for Eres as the first of her kind and Eres as the last of her kind.

As to the last bit, your 'Addendum B' - now this is interesting and really a separate question, as it doesn't really have any bearing on the status of the Tasse girl. This has also been debated to death with no definitive answers...in brief:

It could be Dessimbelackis and the Deragoth and he's just weird in the same way that people who talk about themselves in the 3rd person are weird. Not impossible.

It could be Edgewalker and the Hounds of Shadow, before Edgewalker got corpse-ified and put to work.

edit: It could also be someone we haven't seen before (or since?) who, as D'rek suggests, was the 'Shadowthrone of that time'...not impossible but for me it has to be one of the above (or both, see below). This belief is based on meta-reasoning and extremely flimsy circumstantial evidence regarding physical descriptions and the close relationship of the First Empire to one or more of the pieces of Kurald Emulahn (need to find quotes for this).

It can't really be Dessimbelackis and the Hounds of Shadow unless we imagine that he can control both the Deragoth and the Hounds of Shadow at the same time (not impossible, though) since we can be virtually certain that Dessimbelackis returned with the Deragoth when the First Empire went batshit insane and snared Dejim Nebrahl (see quote in my previous post) and the scene with the Tasse occurs before the collapse of the First Empire.

Personally, I believe that it is Dessimbelackis and the Deragoth and he's just weird that way - further, I believe that Dessimbelackis later makes a play for control of shadow, gets corpsified and becomes Edgewalker There are some pieces of circumstantial to support this but I'm running out of time this morning and it belongs in a different thread anyhow

[Hetan]

I also think it was the Hounds of Shadow in that scene (I think it was Mal that referred to the Hounds of Darkness)but I also think it is possible that Dessimbelackis has played a part in being a master of both sets of hounds at some point. I have not yet been able to find the quote about the tie-in between the First Empire and Shadow, which is why I've not responded sooner.

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 04 November 2009 - 07:28 AM, said:

I also think it was the Hounds of Shadow in that scene (I think it was Mal that referred to the Hounds of Darkness)but I also think it is possible that Dessimbelackis has played a part in being a master of both sets of hounds at some point. I have not yet been able to find the quote about the tie-in between the First Empire and Shadow, which is why I've not responded sooner.

Shadow-HFE connection, huh? Well there's the theory that the warren Treach says they tore apart during the Beast Ritual was in fact the sundering of KE? (That'd be a hallucination from Toc in early MoI). I can't think of any other HFE-Shadow links, but I could very easily be forgetting something.

The thing that kinda gets me with the idea of Dessimbelackis being the one in the Tasse scene is that those Gral were part of the HFE army and given orders "to begin a campaign of subjugation against the tribe believed to rule that forbidding range". Obviously initial HFE ideas on the veracity of the Tasse were grossly overestimated, but the man who showed up obviously knew the Tasse were paltry, and if it was Dessim why would he send orders to send troops in there and then show up in person and decry the whole incident?

[HoosierDaddy]

RE: HFE and Emurlahn connections: The Path of Hands was supposed to go to a pocket of Kurald Emurlahn, thus Shadowthrone's attempt to divert it from there, and those d'ivers and soletaken were HFE creatures for the most part (if not all).

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on 06 November 2009 - 04:47 AM, said:

RE: HFE and Emurlahn connections: The Path of Hands was supposed to go to a pocket of Kurald Emurlahn, thus Shadowthrone's attempt to divert it from there, and those d'ivers and soletaken were HFE creatures for the most part (if not all).

I thought it just went to some scratchy gateway-place that was barely expounded upon?

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, I've been hounding on a HFE-Emurlahn connection for a while, so I might have convinced myself of that by now, and incorporate it as fact.

DoD

Spoiler

Dessembilackis goes to Emurlahn to find allies?

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 06 November 2009 - 04:55 AM

[Malaclypse]

I'm very short on time this morning, but I can at least clear up your problem about Dessimbelackis, D'rek According to Onrack, Dessimbelackis had disappeared long before the Beast Rutual that destrpyed the First Empire and the scene with the tasse takes place 'in the final days of the Empire' so there's no conflict.

Quote

‘Dessimbelackis,’ Onrack whispered. ‘The founder of the human
First Empire. Long vanished by the time of the unleashing of the Beast
Ritual. It was believed he had . . . veered.’

Regarding the close relationship of the First Empire with one or more of the fragments of KE, there are a bunch of hints throughout the books but I recall one passage in particular (in DG I believe) that is particularly interesting. When I find the quote(s) I want I'll post in detail. However, I will say that the original sundering of KE took place long before the First Empire came into being so it's likely that they sundered a fragment of KE.

Oh yeah, and there's no reason why Dessimbelackis can't have control over both sets of Hounds, other than the fact of their natural antipathy as shown in BH, so I have no problem accepting that as a possibility.

[Hetan]

D, on 06 November 2009 - 04:51 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 06 November 2009 - 04:47 AM, said:

RE: HFE and Emurlahn connections: The Path of Hands was supposed to go to a pocket of Kurald Emurlahn, thus Shadowthrone's attempt to divert it from there, and those d'ivers and soletaken were HFE creatures for the most part (if not all).

I thought it just went to some scratchy gateway-place that was barely expounded upon?

There was a gate to Kurald Emurlahn in the Tesem Temple of Shadow - hence Iskaral Pusts diversion of the Path of Hands to lead the soletaken and D'ivers to Tremorlor.

[D'rek]

Malaclypse, on 06 November 2009 - 06:54 AM, said:

I'm very short on time this morning, but I can at least clear up your problem about Dessimbelackis, D'rek According to Onrack, Dessimbelackis had disappeared long before the Beast Rutual that destrpyed the First Empire and the scene with the tasse takes place 'in the final days of the Empire' so there's no conflict.

Quote

'Dessimbelackis,' Onrack whispered. 'The founder of the human
First Empire. Long vanished by the time of the unleashing of the Beast
Ritual. It was believed he had . . . veered.'

Regarding the close relationship of the First Empire with one or more of the fragments of KE, there are a bunch of hints throughout the books but I recall one passage in particular (in DG I believe) that is particularly interesting. When I find the quote(s) I want I'll post in detail. However, I will say that the original sundering of KE took place long before the First Empire came into being so it's likely that they sundered a fragment of KE.

Oh yeah, and there's no reason why Dessimbelackis can't have control over both sets of Hounds, other than the fact of their natural antipathy as shown in BH, so I have no problem accepting that as a possibility.

Ah, except that in HoC Kalam listens to Kullsan, a dead soldier from the HFE, and Kullsan speaks of their war against Dessimbelackis and his legions, and also that they have defeated 5 of the 7 beastly Protectors, and banished the 6th one for good. We know from other sources that the Deragoth were made into guardians of the 7 holy cities, or something along those lines, when Dessim made his deal with them. So this says to me that the Deragoth were gotten rid of while Dessim was still Emperor, though he was likely deposed soon thereafter. Especially the bit of banishing the 6th Protector sounds a lot like banishing it into, say, a statue in the Nascent...

So, if it was indeed Dessim in that clearing, but he wasn't Emperor at the time, then his Deragoth should have been banished/rid before that point. Could still have been him with the HoS, of course... if there was any HFE left after his overthrow by the Seneschals/NOs...


reference:

Quote

'Aye, Dessimbelackis throws endless leions at us, and no matter how many we slaughter, the First Emperor finds more.'
'Not true, Kullsan. Five of the Seven Protectors are no more. Does that mean nothing? And the sixth will not recover, now that we have banished the black beast itself.'
'I wonder, did we indeed drive it from this realm?'
'If the Nameless Ones speak true, then yes-'
[...]
'What in the Abyss... You, Tanno Spiritwalker, explain this-'
'Spiritwalker? Is that the name I will acquire? Is it an honorific? Or the acknowledgement of a curse?'
'What do you mean, priest?'
'I am no priest. I am Tanno, the Eleventh and last Seneschal of Yaraghatan, banished by the First Emperor for my treasonous alliance with the Nameless Ones. Did you know what he would do? Would any of us have guessed? Seven Protectors indeed, but far more than that, oh yes, far more...'