[haroos]

does anyone know the form of using magic in midnight tides ?
i'm still not clear.
are they siphoning powers from holds (meaning houses as a whole) or from warrens which they consider as holds ?
binadas in describing the sword that rulahd touched, said that it was done by a warren "a god ?" , he was asked by trull.
so i'm not clear on their magic.
i'm in the middle of the book, but answer anyway plz. tnx.

[Osseric's mortal sword]

Do you mean the magic of the Tiste Edur? If so most of their power comes from the Crippled God and only very little if any comes from their aspected warren, Kurald Emurhaln. Letherii mages draw on the magic of the holds, the actual holds, rather than the warrens. The relationship between holds and warrens is explained more in RG.

[HoosierDaddy]

haroos;332585 said:

does anyone know the form of using magic in midnight tides ?
i'm still not clear.
are they siphoning powers from holds (meaning houses as a whole) or from warrens which they consider as holds ?
binadas in describing the sword that rulahd touched, said that it was done by a warren "a god ?" , he was asked by trull.
so i'm not clear on their magic.
i'm in the middle of the book, but answer anyway plz. tnx.

This is a main difference in the Letherii Continent: As opposed to the warrens that the rest of the continents use, those in Letherii use holds, which is elder magic, more primevil than warrens. The reason for this is explained in the prologue and throughout Midnight Tides. The warrens and houses that represent them are more recent advances in magic in Wu.

[caladanbrood]

The magic they use is related to the holds in the same way that the magic we've seen before are related to houses. Indirectly, but certainly linked in some way. Don't think it's ever said what they call their "hold-warrens" though.

[Cougar]

I'm pretty sure that they use warrens probably only elder warrens, they may not have the same name but the houses and holds are just ways of interpreting order and roles in power, that's how I'd explain it. The warrens are where the power phyically comes from. So we've seen they have a Dragon Hold which presumably corresponds to the warren Starvald Demalain, there are Tiste Andii Mages in Bluerose who must be able to draw on Kurald Galain and Omtose Phellack must still be active as a warren. I guess there's no high house ice anywhere else in the world cos there is so few Jaghut left, same for no HH Eleint.

[Jude]

Corlo I think says that the magic that comes from holds is way more brutal and raw. The magic that comes from warrens is more refined and pretty. Warrens came after holds but elder warrens were around at the same time as the holds were popular. So warrens are like a technological advancement on Holds as far as sorcery is concerned, even though Holds seem to do way more damage.

[Excellence]

In Midnight Tides, no one knows what warrens are, the younger children to holds. Holds came before warrens, long ago. More primal and potent.

Spoiler

It was funny when Feather discovered them, how Oponn would be rivals to the Errant. It's why it's so hard to access a warren in Lether.

Apt ~ added spoiler box for RG event

[D'rek]

 Cougar, on Jul 17 2008, 10:58 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that they use warrens probably only elder warrens, they may not have the same name but the houses and holds are just ways of interpreting order and roles in power, that's how I'd explain it. The warrens are where the power phyically comes from. So we've seen they have a Dragon Hold which presumably corresponds to the warren Starvald Demalain, there are Tiste Andii Mages in Bluerose who must be able to draw on Kurald Galain and Omtose Phellack must still be active as a warren. I guess there's no high house ice anywhere else in the world cos there is so few Jaghut left, same for no HH Eleint.

Bluerose is outside of the influence of Gothos' ritual, so they would have the usual access of KG.

While the K'risnan and Hannan Mosag's power comes from the CG, the women among the TE did have access to KE, as noted by their magic-casting without being disfigured. Now whether they were accessing the modern KE warren-style, Hold-style, or accessing it old-school-spirit-magic style is not easily determined.

As for the Letherii, while they had a Dragon Hold, Ice Hold, etc in their Tiles, they cannot access any of them and they are all said to be inactive or dormant (at the beginning of MT anyway...). From this I would draw that those holds used to really exist everywhere (at the time of the FE), but they have since evolved into Warrens, and that's when they went dormant in any Casting of the Tiles. The only Hold the Letherii access is the Emtpy Hold, which is their own creation and has no equivalent Warren that it could have evolved into (and thus the Hold component of it becoming dormant).

(Ah Apt, you fixed it already!)

[Excellence]

D'oh! Thought this was the Reaper's Gale forum, that's why I didn't blackout that part. Too many windows open, still getting used to these Vista "tabs".

[Dutch]

This got me curious on another thing, didn't K'rull say in MoI that the Warrens ran trough his veins or so?

Then I'm wondering how that was when the Holds were still active.

[Grief]

K'ruls blood is only the younger warrens, KG/SD/OP etc, are not him.
They could be someone else, or they just just be there, or they could be in the blood if anyone who can use that magic.

[D'rek]

tBH spoiler:

Spoiler

Ampelas shaped the Blood in the paths of Emurlahn.

So there is a connection with K'rul and the "Elder" Warrens. Perhaps they were previously naught but realms, unconnected to the Malaziworld at all until K'rul made them into realms-within-warrens. Or they evolved from something else. Or maybe K'rul shaped different warrens at different times. In any case, the Elder warrens are not excepted to this by default.

[Silencer]

Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain are the "chambers of K'rul's heart", so they are connected.

I've done a lot of thinking on the warrens, and I figure that the Elder Warrens are part-way between Hold and true Warren, in so far as they have been toned down, but not completely transformed, from when they were Holds.

[Silencer]

How would Elder Warrens come before Holds, Hetan? I see the Elder Warrens originating before the Holds, or perhaps AS Holds, but the form they are currently in seems far more refined than Holds. They were used to create the modern warrens, after all.