[Oseric]

Alright so since the very beginning we learned all about the famous Anomander Rake and the Tiste Andii...

Then in MT (MidnightTides) we learn a whole LOT about the Tiste Endur after getting sneak peeks from the other books (i cant remember exactly where these were but i remember the Malazans finding a Tiste Endur in a river and they had said he drowned, water full of lungs or something like that, ill try to find it). Also with the Moranth i believe being related to the Tiste Endur.

And then we learn of L'oric and a few Tiste Liosan riding white mounts that get obliterated with magic after coming through a portal ment to be closed.

so will SE elaborate more on the Children of Light in ToH or maybe wait till the next books after that?

what do you all think?

[Optimus Prime]

I've wondered about this a lot and started at least one thread some time back about it.

I don't know. They seem to be very important at least in regards to the overall Tiste history....and we know they warred with at least the T'lan Imass and Forkrul Assail over the years. Perhaps ICE will touch upon them more in his upcoming novels. I don't really see how SE can bring them in as a whole people into the current storyline...but hey...he's SE...he can do anything.

It seems the whole Osseric/Liosan thing needs to be sorted out. The general populace of the Liosan seems to think he is still their God and Patron. I'm thinking maybe the leaders of their culture and their high Priests know the truth...but are keeping it from the general populace...most likely for selfish/heinous reasons.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well since i learned that liosserical is osrics old name, the connection seems even stronger, liosan and osseric gives you liosseric. interesting that osseric is liosan in appearance and liosserical some kind of lion like thing with cannines.

[Aptorian]

I hope he doesn't use the Liosan more in this series. There's no need for Erikson to shine light on every aspect of the world.

I do like the theory of the CG perhaps corrupting the Liosan though. They seem perfectly suited for his methods...

[Optimus Prime]

I don't think he'll go near the lengths he has with the Edur or the Andii, but I expect some more "stage time" with the Liosan, whether it's the four we met in HoC or others.

Osseric is a mystery. I'd like to know more, but I agree Apt that it's nice not to be spoon fed every little detail. Mystery is good.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The Liosan seem just as repressed and inhibited as the Edur were. Although, how did they know about Iccy? Either:

1. Iccy visited them.
2. Osric told them about Iccy.
3. The Liosan have been on Burn before.

It would be hilarious if the TL arrived in force on 7C, only to die of plague.

[Optimus Prime]

The Liosan have been to Burn previous to the current time.

They fought the Forkrul Assail on Lether some time ago.

They also fought the Imass.

We just don't know exactly what their arrival upon Burn was like. We know Andii and Edur was flight from Civil Wars and other stuff.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Xander;330791 said:

The Liosan have been to Burn previous to the current time.

They fought the Forkrul Assail on Lether some time ago.

They also fought the Imass.

We just don't know exactly what their arrival upon Burn was like. We know Andii and Edur was flight from Civil Wars and other stuff.

Damn, forgot. Must have been around the time when Iccy went there, to build his machine....likely.

[Morgoth]

When I read the Return of the Crimson Guard prologue, I couldn't help but wonder if Liossercal is the CG.. Far fetched I know, but I've always thought the CG to be father light, not perhaps such a long stretch then form him to be his son? *sigh* crazy theories, here I come

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I thought the CG was dragged down from elsewhere...

Aren't the Moranth Barghast?

I think we have enough Tiste Lioson on screen to find out whatever it is... With L'oric, Osric flashbacks, and those four who will probably show up again.

And I think we will see them, if only from Hannan Mosag's prayers in RG where he is answered by Dark and Light, in favour of a united Tiste effort. The sky darkens on one side, and lightens on the other. Or maybe he's just smoked too many frogs.

[Aptorian]

The Moranth and Barghast are two different species.

[Oseric]

the moranth i believe are a break away from a Tiste... Andii or Endur i cant remember which was said

[Aptorian]

Edur, they even have their own fragment of shadow. But the Edur don't like them, and they've clashed before.

[Oseric]

yeah exactly...

i just thought it would be cool to see all 3 Tiste throwing themselves at eachother with their magic and what not

[Jorram]

Aptorian;330927 said:

Edur, they even have their own fragment of shadow. But the Edur don't like them, and they've clashed before.

Not quite. The Edur clashed with the Barghast and those of the latter who chose to cooperate with the Edur and learn from them, eventually became the Moranth. The Edur remained in Barghast's memory as the "Tistenur", the enemy they fought on the seas, who lived in the forests to the far southeast (Lether).

And where do you get that that Moranth have their own fragment of Shadow???

[Aptorian]

The Moranth also clashed with the Edur, I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in there.

As for the fragment of shadow in skyforest... I can't remember.

[Oseric]

i think i remember that too Apt...

[Raraku]

Some quotes from MOI about the relationship between th Barghast, Moranth and Edur.

"Twist shrugged. 'We do not fear change. We do not resist it. The Barghast must accept that growth is necessary, even if painful. They must learn what the Moranth learned long ago, when we did not draw our swords and instead spoke with the Tiste Edur - the grey-skinned wanderers of the seas. Spoke, to discover they were as lost as we were, as weary of war, as ready for peace.'
'Tiste Edur?'
'Children of the Shattered Warren. A fragment had been discovered, in the vast forest of Moranth that would become our new homeland. Kurald Emurlahn, the true face of Shadow. There were so few Tiste Edur left, we chose to welcome them. The last of them are gone now, from Moranth Wood, long gone, but their legacy is what has made us as we are.'"

"As he crouched to study one such panel, Cafal murmured behind him, 'T'isten'ur.'
Itkovian glanced back. 'Sir?'
'The enemies of our Founding Spirits. T'isten'ur, the Grey-Skinned. Demons in the oldest tales who collected heads, yet kept the victims living… heads that remained watchful, bodies that worked ceaselessly. T'isten'ur: demons who dwelt in shadows. The Founding Spirits fought them on the Blue Wastes…' He fell silent, brow knitting, then continued, 'The Blue Wastes. We had no understanding of such a place. The shouldermen believed it was our Birth Realm. But now… it was the sea, the oceans.'
'The Barghast Birth Realm in truth, then.'
'Aye. The Founding Spirits drove the T'isten'ur from the Blue Wastes, drove the demons back into their underworld, the Forest of Shadows - a realm said to lie far to the southeast…'
'Another continent, perhaps.'
'Perhaps.'
'You are discovering the truth behind your oldest legends, Cafal. In my home of Elingarth, far to the south of here, there are stories of a distant continent in the direction you have indicated. A land, sir, of giant firs and redwoods and spruce - a forest unbroken, its feet hidden in shadows and peopled with deadly wraiths.
'As Shield Anvil,' Itkovian resumed after a moment, returning his attention once more to the carvings, 'I am as much a scholar as a warrior. T'isten'ur - a name with curious echoes. Tiste Andü, the Dwellers in Darkness. And, more rarely mentioned, and then in naught but fearful whispers, their shadow-kin, the Tiste Edur. Grey-skinned, believed extinct - and thankfully so, for it is a name sheathed in dread. T'isten'ur, the first glottal stop implies past tense, yes? Tlan, now T'lan - your language is kin to that of the Imass. Close kin. Tell me, do you understand Moranth?'
Cafal grunted. 'The Moranth speak the language of the Barghast shouldermen - the holy tongue - the language that rose from the pit of darkness from whence all thought and all words first came. The Moranth claim kinship with the Barghast - they call us their Fallen Kin. But it is they who have fallen, not us. They who have found a shadowed forest in which to live. They who have embraced the alchemies of the T'isten'ur. They who made peace with the demons long ago, exchanging secrets, before retreating into their mountain fastnesses and hiding for ever behind their insect masks. "

So the Moranth are kin of Barghast but they didnt fight with the Edur too long and made peace

[Oseric]

and i suppose the Edur mated with the Moranth so Edur blood is with them now...

and now the Barghast are in Lether which isn't far from the Edur... will a conflict arise?

and what the hell are they doing there anyway? Tool the leader with Hetan his wife, although im sure we all saw that coming

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

So the Moranth aren't Edur and they're outcast Barghast, which makes them... Barghast... I feel better now for losing rep :eek:

I think the Edur are done from this fight in Lether now that Rhulad is dead, most of them want to go home, and where the Barghast are is on the other side of the empire.. I think. (very unsure on that one)