[D'rek]

Wampyry;321394 said:

Pretty sure this is Shadowthrone Apsalar and Cutter are talking about.
Shadowthrone is Tiste Edur. Sitting on it will not allow you to command
the T'lan Imass.

let's see that one again:

Wampyry;321394 said:

Pretty sure this is Shadowthrone Apsalar and Cutter are talking about.
Shadowthrone is Tiste Edur. Sitting on it will not allow you to command
the T'lan Imass.

Hey Wampyry... have you read the books?

[Khellendros]

Ok, first off, it seems fairly clear that the Aren Rebellion involving the T'lan Imass happened before Kellanved and Dancer's ascension. For one thing, it's made clear in Deadhouse Gates that Apsalar, when mentioning this incident, is recollecting Dancer's memories, not Cotillion's.

Now, here's what I believe. Kellanved sat on the throne and ordered the T'lann Imass into Aren. But he tells Dancer that he had nothing to do with it, and that it was Surly. Dancer, trusting Kellanved (as it's mentioned in the same place in Deadhouse Gates, he only trusted the un-ascended Kellanved and Dassem Ultor), flies into a rage and goes and confronts Surly, who's like what-the-heck are you talking about.

Very soon after, Kellanved and Dancer abandon Surly and the Empire in order to explore the Azath. Dancer, who may have had doubts about doing such a thing, is now happy to let Surly struggle by herself. This could also help explain why he was so vehement in avenging himself on her by possessing Apsalar in GotM - perhaps he wanted to rectify what he saw as his mistake after the Aren Rebellion - not killing Surly when he had the chance.

[Imperial Historian]

The Aren rebellion is an interesting one, exactly when it takes place isn't exactly clear, but the two obvious possibilities are shortly after the emperor's assasination, or during the emperor and dassems absence from malazan affairs.

From what we know it is possible that Surly commanded the imass to destroy aren, she did have control over the imass to some extent (more so whilst kelvanned was away as it seems he left her with power to command the imass in his absence), later after his ascension dispute arose amonst the imass over whether to serve the malazan empire, and they went off into the Jhag Odhan for some jaghut slaying, and later seem to have at least partly returned to the empires command, though it seems more of a partnership now than one commanding the other.

Then we get to the conflicting quotes, over when exactly the aren rebellion took place and who was responsible, I'm inclined to think that the aren rebellion took place during the emperors absence as I don't think that lasseen had the necessary authority to command a slaughter like that after the emperors death, we know that seven cities was in rebellion at this point as dassem was still fighting until the emperors death so it's feasible that a rebellion took place in aren during this period and lasseen decided to crush it with the imass in the emperors absence to demonstrate her superiority, then dancer was sent back to check on her.

If you want to go a more twisty route in that the rebellion occured after the emperors death, and lasseen and dancer still argued... well the theory that lasseen, dancer and the emperor were in cahoots has been around for a while, perhaps after the emperor and dancers fake assasinations, lasseen used the imass to crush the aren rebellion to try and demonstrate that the malazan empire and shadow were no longer aligned with each other, and so divert attention from this alliance, but dancer argued with her about the necessity of this action.

[OtataralDragon]

Wampyry;321436 said:

Sorry, I should have realized that 'Shadowthrone' would cause confusion.
Try it this way. The Throne of Shadow is Edur - it is located on Drift Avali. It
does not compel the T'lan.

The First Throne Is T'lan. It is located on Quon Tali. Mortals can (in the past) compell the Imass
These two thrones are a bitch to remember and associate correctly.

No, I'm perfectly clear on that part. We all are. But you still don't seem to be reading the quote I gave you, because it specifically talks about Kellanved/Shadowthrone sitting on the First Throne to prevent someone else from doing so!

Do me a favor and actually read what I typed up for you, okay? Otherwise what's the point?

[Danyah]

Attempt:

-Rise of the Malazan Empire
-Dancer, Kellanved and the bunch rule a small empire
-Invasion + pacification of Quon Tali
-Dancer and Kellanved work out how the deadhouse works, they can travel by Azath
-They are more occupied by "research", Surly becomes regent
-They find the first throne, put the T'lan under command of the Empire
-Invasion of 7c
-Dancer and Kellanved presumed dead/missing by everyone except by the group of insiders
-Aren rebels; Surly commands the T'lan to make an example, argues with Dancer
-Kellanved commands the T'lan to leave, they vanish. D&Kvd vanish
-NoK, empress Laseen

I just don't know where to fit Y'gathan and the hunt of QB.

[D'rek]

Danyah;321810 said:

Attempt:

-Rise of the Malazan Empire
-Dancer, Kellanved and the bunch rule a small empire
-Invasion + pacification of Quon Tali
-Dancer and Kellanved work out how the deadhouse works, they can travel by Azath
-They are more occupied by "research", Surly becomes regent
-They find the first throne, put the T'lan under command of the Empire
-Invasion of 7c
-Dancer and Kellanved presumed dead/missing by everyone except by the group of insiders
-Aren rebels; Surly commands the T'lan to make an example, argues with Dancer
-Kellanved commands the T'lan to leave, they vanish. D&Kvd vanish
-NoK, empress Laseen

I just don't know where to fit Y'gathan and the hunt of QB.

Sorry, doesn't work...
Kellenvad had control of the T'lan Imass before he conquered Quon Tali. They were used in the takeover of Li Heng and Kartool.

[Danyah]

Attempt II

-Dancer and Kellanved work out how the deadhouse works, they can travel by Azath+rise of the Malazan Empire
-They find the first throne, put the T'lan under command of the Empire
-Invasion + pacification of Quon Tali
-Invasion of 7c
-They are more occupied by "research", Surly becomes regent
-Dancer and Kellanved presumed dead/missing by everyone except by the group of insiders
-Aren rebels; Surly commands the T'lan to make an example, argues with Dancer
-Kellanved commands the T'lan to leave, they vanish. D&Kvd vanish
-NoK, empress Laseen

Still don't know where to fit Y'gathan and the hunt of QB.

[Imperial Historian]

Kelvanned didn't command the imass to leave, the imass learnt of the jhag presence on the jhag odhan and went to deal with them, leaving lasseen in the lurch, later some decided to return to the malazans service.

y'ghatan occurs at the same time as kel + d's disappearance

the hunt for quick ben occurs after the invasion of seven cities and before the emperor leaves as he worked closely with the emperor and dancer.

[Danyah]

Conclusion: 2 possible culprits for the Aren slaughter: Surly and Kel
and the T'lan of course. Tay is out

[Wampyry]

A said:

let's see that one again:



Hey Wampyry... have you read the books?

Yep. almost twice. One more to go. 3 posts down from the one you
quoted I clarified 'Shadowthrone'. For some reason you neglected to
mention that. Pretty selective in your quotes aren't you?

[Danyah]

It's because you said Kellanved is Tiste Edur. He's an ascended human.

Thrones don't matter. Most of us think it's either Surly or Kellanved. If it would turn out to be Tay (0.000001 percent chance IMO) I'll oversea you a beer.

[Wampyry]

OtataralDragon;321600 said:

No, I'm perfectly clear on that part. We all are. But you still don't seem to be reading the quote I gave you, because it specifically talks about Kellanved/Shadowthrone sitting on the First Throne to prevent someone else from doing so!

Do me a favor and actually read what I typed up for you, okay? Otherwise what's the point?

I thought I did explain it - obvious not. Will try again.

Apsalar and Cutter on Drift Avalii talking about the Tiste Edur Throne.

Cutter, Shadowthrone need only come here and plant his scrawny arse
on it. (Tiste Edur Throne)

Apsalar. Shadowthrone did just that, once before, as Emperor Kellanved.
He claimed the First Throne. The Throne of the T'lam Imass. (on Quon Tali)

Maybe nobody can sit on the First Throne of the Edur as long as Shadowthrone is alive. But any worthy mortal can sit on the First Throne of the T'lan Imass
and give orders.

The next page in my book and probably yours Apsalar and Cutter discuss
why Shadowthrone doesn't claim the Edur throne.

Cutter, Let's ask the question in another way. What if Kellanved and
Dancer had returned and successfully reclaimed the imperial throne? But at
the same time they had taken over the Shadow Realm. They would not
stood for that, the gods, that is. Ascendants of all kinds would have
converged on the Malazan Empire. They would have pounded the empire
and the two men ruling it into dust.


Don't know what else to say. Kellanved sat on the First Throne of the
T'lan Imass. he, apparently, doesn't want to sit on the Edur Throne because
of possible repercussions from the other Ascendants and Gods.

[OtataralDragon]

Sigh.

The First Throne is the Throne of the T'lan Imass. The Throne of Shadow is not called the First Throne. In the Cutter/Apsalar conversation, they say that by sitting on the First Throne, which is the Throne of the Imass, he (Kellanved/Shadowthrone) negates the chance of anyone else finding and taking that Throne. In other words, because he sat on it, nobody else can. He negates that possibility, meaning he prevents it from happening, meaning it can't happen because he already claimed the Throne.

And that's the last time I try to explain that. It doesn't seem to be sinking in, anyway.

[bhok'arala]

plus, the throne of shadow just happens to be underneath ST's butt right now (int he warren of shadows), not being fought over by imass.

sinking in? if sinking doesn't work, try beating it in!

[The Dark Wanderer]

I think I'm more confused after reading this thread than I was before it so I'm just going to block it off and go back to my memory of about 10 minutes ago even if it was/is horribly wrong at least I understand it!

[bhok'arala]

*sigh* another pontless post...

ignorance is bliss...but it also reaps bad rep. like calling ST edur...

[D'rek]

Wampyry;321895 said:

Yep. almost twice. One more to go. 3 posts down from the one you
quoted I clarified 'Shadowthrone'. For some reason you neglected to
mention that. Pretty selective in your quotes aren't you?

I choose not to alter what I've already written in my posts after they're responded too as it makes it very confusing for people who read the thread later and are trying to make sense of the thread. It's better to just respond with corrections or else leave the post intact and add a new section below that is marked as an edit and clarifies.

Anyways, as we're now incorporating the T'lan Imass going off into the Odhan for some reason, keep in mind they could only do this once Kel had become Shadowthrone, as it was then that his claiming two thrones lessened his hold on the T'lan Imass.

I would also like to note that regardless of the "right" answer, this whole question of who ordered the T'lan into Aren is confusing and contradictory for a reason. Just like the Siege of Pale, the Night of Knives, etc., there are events in MBotF that SE has made intentionally confusing, and that different characters can interpret very differently.

[Wampyry]

OtataralDragon;321984 said:

Sigh.

The First Throne is the Throne of the T'lan Imass. The Throne of Shadow is not called the First Throne. In the Cutter/Apsalar conversation, they say that by sitting on the First Throne, which is the Throne of the Imass, he (Kellanved/Shadowthrone) negates the chance of anyone else finding and taking that Throne. In other words, because he sat on it, nobody else can. He negates that possibility, meaning he prevents it from happening, meaning it can't happen because he already claimed the Throne.

And that's the last time I try to explain that. It doesn't seem to be sinking in, anyway.

OtataralDragon,

You win. I concede. Dense doesn't begin to describe my thickness.
I was hung up on Onrack's statement that the Empress could not sit the
throne because she couldn't find it. The fact that both the T'lan renegades
and Edur were hunting it. My thought was if everybody wants it then
the power is in the throne, and whoever sits the throne wields the power.
Your persistence made me re-read some passages on the First Throne
today. Onrack says of the Edur, When they win the FIrst throne they
will reallize the truth. That it is not for them. They can hold it, but they
cannot use. Exactly your point! Believe it or not I am relieved to be out of
this mess. Thanks have rep.

[Abyss]

By the way...

Shadowthrone, in the sense of a Throne that grants control of Meanas, that Kellanved/ST and Dancer/Cotilion control;

and,

the Throne of Shadow, in the sense of the Throne everyone's fighting about on Drift Avalii that in theory can repair Kurald Emulahn,

are two separate Thrones.

- Abyss, sits on the throne almost daily.

[Carnifex]

Really? I thought Shadowthrone was just a pseudonym for Ammanas, which was a pseudonym for Kellanved. The name-behind-a-name approach seems Shadow's style.