[Wampyry]

So much confusion about Aren. Following is my thought on the subject

First the knowns: Turqua, aide to Kimloc, Tano Spirtwalker, to Fiddler,
"Sending the T'lan Imass into Aren proved the madness of the Malazan
Empire."

Dujek to Whiskeyjack. "Laseen didn't give that order - someone else did.
That someone believed to be dead. First we knew that the Emperor did not
die."

Apsalar/Cotillion/Dancer. As Dancer, "Who ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren?
Surly, the commander of the Claw - the woman who gave herself a new
name. I argued with Surly. No one else in the room..."

Onrack to Trull, "The Empress does not command us."
Trull, "Why doesn't she just sit on the throne?"
Onrack, "She can not find it"

Big time difference between Dancer and Dujeck. Dancer does not lie. Dujek
expanations to Whiskeyjack are suspect - even Whiskeyjack thinks so.
I will go with Dancer and Onrack.

The Emperor sends Dassem and his army to Seven Cities to squash the
burgeoning rebellions - particularly at Y'Ghatan. A growing rebelliion is
beginning at Aren. Surly sends a Claw to Aren. The Empire will send some
T'lan Imass to help crush the rebellion. The Claw then goes to Dassem's
army and informs Dassem that he should crush the unnamed city where
a Protector and his cadre of mages are acting up, then he is to continue
on to Y"Ghatan. The Claw than informs Tayschrenn to send some T'lan Imass
to Aren. He knows where the throne is - Surly does not. Tayschrenn sits
the throne and orders the T'lan Imass to Aren, returns to Dassem's army.

At Aren, the Fist tells the Red Blades that the T'lan Imass are coming to
help. Barathol is furious. We can handle the uprising. The T'lan have only
one way of resolving differences. Fist, I follow orders so should you. Barathol
kills the fist, is beaten up by the Red Blades and held for Crucifixition. The
people of Aren have a new hero - Barathol. A full scale uprising occurs.
Barathol is freed and knows what is about to happpen. Helps himself to some
of the Treasury, opens the gates for the people to escape and leaves Aren.
The T'lan Imass arrive at Aran and dispense their special kind of justice.

At the unamed city, Dassem kills the Protector and smashes the city's army.
The cadre of mages flee and Whiskeyjack is ordered to pursue. Dassem goes
on to Y'Ghatan where he is is killed-a-bit by the Claw. (Laseen admits this
killing to Kalam. Dassem is too ambitious and he had sworn himself to Hood.)
Whiskeyjack follows the cadre until only Quick Ben is left. QB now has the
souls of 11 mages and one scholar within him.

Next scene. Whiskeyjack is at Malaz City training new troops. A twelve year-
old Paran is talking to him about Dassem recent death. Whiskeyjack is a
Commander and Dujek is subordinate. Quick Ben not mentioned. He may be
with the Emperor as Kribalah Rule, one of the guises he uses to mask his
idenity as Delat. He gets promoted to High Mage and sent to the Black Dog
campaign. Note: Delat can assume the guise of any of the souls he has
within him. Whiskeyjack talks to Surly who replies my name is now Laseen.
Note: if Dancer is right and he actually talked to Clawmaster Surly,then
the massacre at Aren had to happen before Whiskeyjack reaches Malaz City.


Final scene. At Pale, Whiskeyjack is a sergeant, Dujek is High Fist and Delat
is hiding as Quick Ben in the army.

[D'rek]

1. Tayschrenn did not sit on the throne of T'lan Imass. Where the hell did you get that crazy idea?!

2. The T'lan Imass actions in Aren occured during Laseen's rule of the Malazan Empire, after the BBs went through Raraku, after Dassem's fall, after Paran chatted with Whiskeyjack in the GotM prologue. The only quotation that casts doubt on this is Apsalar in DhG, while at least 3 others all very clearly state it occured during the early years of Laseen's rule.

[Wampyry]

A said:

1. Tayschrenn did not sit on the throne of T'lan Imass. Where the hell did you get that crazy idea?!

By elimination. Onrack says the Empress does not command us. She can not
find the throne. I know of Dujek's opinion. However, do not recall the other two
incidents you mentioned. One more fact that doesn't make sense: As Fiddler is
leaving the home of Kimloc, tano, Spiritwalker, he is being escorted by Turqa, aide to Kimloc. Turqa, "His first guests in eleven years" Fiddler, "Eleven years you say? then
his last guests would have been...
Turqa, High Fist Dujek Onearm, of the Malazan Empire. Negotiating the peaceful
surrender of Karakarang. The slaughter at Aren by the t'lan Imass revealed the
Empire's madness... This occurred in 1164 Year if Burn's Sleep. One year before
Whiskeyjack is talking to Paran and Dujek is subordinate to Whiskeyjack.

[lasombra]

timelines dont mean anything.

[Wampyry]

lasombra;320522 said:

timelines dont mean anything.

I know. Like Barathol lived in that little village for eleven years. This is 1164
of Burn's sleep. Do the math. All my little nothings point to the Aren Massacre
happening before 1154 of Burns sleep. I get no information refuting that.
Prove me wrong. I will apologize in abject humiliatiion.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Don't worry... just wait for the series to finish, pop a memory drug and ask soemone to sort it out for you.

[D'rek]

First of all, you can't deduce Tayschreen being on the First Throne by elimination. If you could, then why not Karsa Orlong on the throne? Did you know that since we can't prove they didn't, that Scabandari, Barack, Aragan, Rath'Hood, Hanradi Khalag and Grizzin Farl have all sat on the First Throne?!

Seriously, there is only one person on the First Throne - Kellenvad. He sat on it first, and has not yielded its power, so nobody else could have sat on the throne. His insubstantiality since becoming Shadowthrone has lessened that claim somewhat since, but Monok Ochem clearly reveals that nobody since has, maybe because there are T'lan Imass, an Aptorian and 1300 warrior-kiddies guarding it to prevent such a thing.

This is Dujek's bleurb from MoI. Hugin/Mugin posted it in the same bloody thread that probably inspired you to make this one, despite the fact that the search function can yield 10-page threads on this material that's already covered all this:

"The T’lan Imass slaughtering the citizens of Aren. But, as even with that one, each disaster yields its truths. Laseen didn’t give that order, but someone did. Someone returned to sit down in that First Throne – and that someone was supposed to be dead – and he used the T’lan Imass to wreak vengeance on Laseen, to shake her grip on the Empire. Lo, the first hint that Emperor Kellanved wasn’t quite as dead as we would have liked."

It's pretty damn clear - Kellenvad controlled the T'lan Imass. After he died and Laseen took over the Empire, he then returned to the fold by commanding the T'lan Imass into Aren, which Laseen could neither do nor prevent, having no ability to countermand orders made by the sitter-upon-the-First-throne. As Dujek points out, Kellenvad was at this time believed to be dead.

wampyry, on horribly paraphrasing, said:

First the knowns: Turqua, aide to Kimloc, Tano Spirtwalker, to Fiddler,
"Sending the T'lan Imass into Aren proved the madness of the Malazan
Empire."

He says 'empire' not 'emperor'. It is referring to the Malazan Empire, which was under Laseen at the time.

wampyry, on horribly paraphrasing, said:

Dujek to Whiskeyjack. "Laseen didn't give that order - someone else did.
That someone believed to be dead. First we knew that the Emperor did not
die."

see above. Also, I wouldn't put in "quotations" things that you are horrifyingly paraphrasing.

wampyry, on horribly paraphrasing, said:

Apsalar/Cotillion/Dancer. As Dancer, "Who ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren?
Surly, the commander of the Claw - the woman who gave herself a new
name. I argued with Surly. No one else in the room..."

-------------------------

Onrack to Trull, "The Empress does not command us."
Trull, "Why doesn't she just sit on the throne?"
Onrack, "She can not find it"

---------------------------------

Big time difference between Dancer and Dujeck. Dancer does not lie. Dujek
expanations to Whiskeyjack are suspect - even Whiskeyjack thinks so.
I will go with Dancer and Onrack.

First of all, Dancer and Onrack are not in agreement, so you can't go with both of them. Onrack is saying the Empress couldn't command them because she can't find the throne, while Dancer('s memories) are saying that she *did* command them.

Does Dancer lie? Probably all the time. Regardless, Apsalar's memories are not 100% reliable. Additionally, there is nothing in Apsalar's quote to say that Dancer/Cotillion could not have visited Surly/Laseen *after* he ascended and was presumed dead. Laseen would have known as soon as the T'lan Imass went into Aren that this meant Kellenvad was not dead, so it would have cost Shadowthrone nothing to send in Cotillion for some words.

And finally, MoI is where SE starts to be the most reliable with his world and history. Just as there are plenty of GotMisms, there are more then a few DhGisms, so even though these quotes and infos fit nicely together, if there was still some doubt you should go with MoI. But there isn't cause it all works out perfectly and you just can't see it.

[Abyss]

I think A'K nailed it - Kellanved, tho still 'missing', ordered to Imass into Aren behind the scenes, basically to mess with Laseen.

Don't forget, Laseen's assassination attempt was all part of Kel and Dancer's plan to ascend and take over Shadow. They could not have made that happen without keeping tabs on the Empire and esp Laseen and likely giving events a nudge now and then if necessary. We could speculate endlessly about just what Kel had to gain by the Aren massacre: ruining Laseen's credibility in 7C or alternately ensuring it (see Kimloc's surrender); covering some other event taking place (ie: if Dancer was wiping out some Shadow cult rivals, how better to cover it up than by killing half the city)...

The other possibility is that someone got past Kel and Dancer and sat themselves on the throne and gave the order before being stopped.

Also note, there are, if i'm not mistaken, about three different Aren uprisings, and it's easy to mix up details. Barathol was the guy (apparently reluctantly) in command when the Imass dropped in and started killing people, and Kimloc's surrender did follow on that particular incident.

- Abyss, also wondered how Bara knew things were going to go that way...

[Wampyry]

Abyss;320985 said:

I think A'K nailed it - Kellanved, tho still 'missing', ordered to Imass into Aren behind the scenes, basically to mess with Laseen.

Don't forget, Laseen's assassination attempt was all part of Kel and Dancer's plan to ascend and take over Shadow. They could not have made that happen without keeping tabs on the Empire and esp Laseen and likely giving events a nudge now and then if necessary. We could speculate endlessly about just what Kel had to gain by the Aren massacre: ruining Laseen's credibility in 7C or alternately ensuring it (see Kimloc's surrender); covering some other event taking place (ie: if Dancer was wiping out some Shadow cult rivals, how better to cover it up than by killing half the city)...

The other possibility is that someone got past Kel and Dancer and sat themselves on the throne and gave the order before being stopped.

Also note, there are, if i'm not mistaken, about three different Aren uprisings, and it's easy to mix up details. Barathol was the guy (apparently reluctantly) in command when the Imass dropped in and started killing people, and Kimloc's surrender did follow on that particular incident.

- Abyss, also wondered how Bara knew things were going to go that way...

My post was a simple one based on Erikson's books.

Fiddler is being escorted from the home of Kimloc by Turqa, aide to the Tano
Spiritwalker. Turqa tells Fiddler of the honor bestowed upon him. He is the
first visiter in eleven years to meet with Kimloc. Eleven years ago Kimloc
peacefully surrendered Karakarang, the Holy City of the Tano, to Dujek
Onearm. Kimloc did this because the slaughter at Aren by the T'lan Imass
revealed the Empire's madness. Turqa statement takes place in 1164 BS.

Barathol looking at the five T'lan Imass at his village sends some of the
villagers with a series of orders to bring him his axe and shield. In the eleven
years Barathol lived in the village, he had never spoken so many words at once.
This took place in 1164.

Two separate statements pointing to 1152-1153 of BS as the time of the
Aren Massacre.

Apsalar talking to Urko. Cotillion says I can leave once I am done and he
won't follow me. Urko, believe him, Dancer doesn't lie.

Apsalar/Cotillion/Dancer talking about the T'lan Imass. Who ordered the
T'lan Imass into Aren? The commander of the Claw. I argued with Surly...
Cutter to Apsalar, those memorie are not Cotillion's are they?
Apsalar, no they are Dancer's.

Erikson brings the reader to Urko where we learn Dancer doesn't lie.
Then a statement by Dancer that Surly ordered the T'lan Imass.

Onrack to Trull. The Empress does not command us. She didn't find the
throne (pun unintended)

On Feb 8, 2008. I wrote a thread in BH forum listing several disparate
quotes about the T'lan Imass massacre at Aren. My final statement said
that all these quotes can be reconciled - at least as far as the issuer knows-
by the assumption that A Malazan ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren,
but it was neither The Emperor nor Surly/Empress. I nominated Tayschrenn.

I stlill think he is the most likely candidate. Of course, not the only one.

[Danyah]

IRRC the T'lan in Barathols village are the broken T'lan under the command of the CG. The unbroken (the ones that slaughtered Aren) are the ones that under control of the first throne and are absolutely unconnected.

The First Throne has been discovered by Kellanved even before he captured the Shadow Throne, and no one used it since, not even Dancer. But Surly can have ordered them without using the throne (written orders/messengers), if the t'lan were convinced that they were obeying Imperial orders. Kellanved didn't constantly occupy the throne either, did he now.

Stop relying so heavily on dates. It will drive you nuts.

[Venerus]

Danyah;321323 said:

IRRC the T'lan in Barathols village are the broken T'lan under the command of the CG. The unbroken (the ones that slaughtered Aren) are the ones that under control of the first throne and are absolutely unconnected.

The First Throne has been discovered by Kellanved even before he captured the Shadow Throne, and no one used it since, not even Dancer. But Surly can have ordered them without using the throne (written orders/messengers), if the t'lan were convinced that they were obeying Imperial orders. Kellanved didn't constantly occupy the throne either, did he now.

Stop relying so heavily on dates. It will drive you nuts.

You completely misunderstood Wamp's post. Re-read it.

Anyway, re: Dancer doesn't lie -- it's still possible Dancer was mistaken, Wampry.

[Danyah]

I didn't. It's still possible that Surly ordered the T'lan and that Tayshrenn and Kellanved have nothing to do with it.
And he shouldn't rely on dates, SE doesn't do it either.

[Venerus]

Danyah;321335 said:

I didn't. It's still possible that Surly ordered the T'lan and that Tayshrenn and Kellanved have nothing to do with it.
And he shouldn't rely on dates, SE doesn't do it either.

Not that. Wampry isn't saying the unbound T'lan Imass are the same that worked Aren over. At all. Re-read his post. Because this:

Danyah;321323 said:

IRRC the T'lan in Barathols village are the broken T'lan under the command of the CG. The unbroken (the ones that slaughtered Aren) are the ones that under control of the first throne and are absolutely unconnected.

Is just a hopeless straw-man.

[OtataralDragon]

Wampyry;321316 said:

On Feb 8, 2008. I wrote a thread in BH forum listing several disparate
quotes about the T'lan Imass massacre at Aren. My final statement said
that all these quotes can be reconciled - at least as far as the issuer knows-
by the assumption that A Malazan ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren,
but it was neither The Emperor nor Surly/Empress. I nominated Tayschrenn.

I stlill think he is the most likely candidate. Of course, not the only one.

You're overlooking one thing - as long as Kellanved/Shadowthrone is alive, nobody else can sit on the First Throne.


HoC, chapter 20, p. 772-73 Bantam pb, Cutter and Apsalar talking about the Throne of Shadow:

"Then Shadowthrone need only come here and plant his scrawny arse on it, right?"

He disliked her answering smile. "Thus ensuring that nobody else could claim its power, or the position of King of High House Shadow. Unless, of course, they killed Shadowthrone first. A god of courage and unassailable power might well plant his scrawny arse on that throne to end the argument once and for all. But Shadowthrone did just that, once before, as Emperor Kellanved."

"He did?"

"He claimed the First Throne. The throne of the T'lan Imass."

Oh.

Fortunately," Apsalar continued, "as Shadowthrone, he has shown little interest in making use of his role as Emperor of the T'lan Imass."

"Well, why bother? This way, he negates the chance of anyone else finding and taking that throne, while his avoidance of using it himself ensures that no-one takes notice he has it in the first place - gods, I'm starting to sound like Kruppe! In any case, that seems clever, not cowardly."


In other words, neither Tayschrenn nor anybody else besides Kell/ST can sit on the throne and order the Imass around.

[Danyah]

My point exactly, better phrased.

[Wampyry]

Venerus;321334 said:

You completely misunderstood Wamp's post. Re-read it.

Anyway, re: Dancer doesn't lie -- it's still possible Dancer was mistaken, Wampry.

I agree Dancer could have been mistaken. Emperor and Surly are certainly
in contention for the order of the massacre. Hell, Cotillion could have ordered
it. I think Tayschrenn ordered the T'lan Imass on Surly's orders. Thus, all
the vague quotes throughout the books can be true, in an Erikson's sort
of way.

Fiddler, Neither the Emperor or Laseen ordered the massacre

Kimloc, the Malazan Empire ordered it. (That's why he surrendered his
country)

Dujek. Surly didn't order it. he implies it was the Emperor.

Dancer, Surly ordered the massacre. True, but she ordered Tayschrenn ,
who ordered the T'lan Imass.

Someday we will find out who did what and when - hopefully

[bhok'arala]

besides, whenever someone comes up to the throne, it seems broken.

"the betrayer stands behind the throne. that is why it is empty"

a letherii quote, maybe they know who shadowthrone/cotillion were?

[Wampyry]

Danyah;321335 said:

I didn't. It's still possible that Surly ordered the T'lan and that Tayshrenn and Kellanved have nothing to do with it.
And he shouldn't rely on dates, SE doesn't do it either.

Normally, I don't pay too much attention to dates. This case was different.
The time frames I used came from two different books, HOC & BH. They
both landed the reader at 1152-1153 BS as the time of the T'lan attack
on Aren. I don't believe this was accidental; believe they were pointers to
where Erikson wanted the raders to go.

[OtataralDragon]

Wampyry;321394 said:

Pretty sure this is Shadowthrone Apsalar and Cutter are talking about.
Shadowthrone is Tiste Edur. Sitting on it will not allow you to command
the T'lan Imass.

On the other hand the First Throne is T'lan Imass. A mortal siting upon it
can order the T'lan Imass.

Did you read the whole quote? First they talk about why ST doesn't just sit on the Throne of Shadow. Then Apsalar, using Dancer's memories, comments that ST did sit on the First Throne, specifically to prevent anyone else from doing so.


"He claimed the First Throne. The throne of the T'lan Imass."

Oh.

Fortunately," Apsalar continued, "as Shadowthrone, he has shown little interest in making use of his role as Emperor of the T'lan Imass."

"Well, why bother? This way, he negates the chance of anyone else finding and taking that throne, while his avoidance of using it himself ensures that no-one takes notice he has it in the first place - gods, I'm starting to sound like Kruppe! In any case, that seems clever, not cowardly."

[Wampyry]

OtataralDragon;321420 said:

Did you read the whole quote? First they talk about why ST doesn't just sit on the Throne of Shadow. Then Apsalar, using Dancer's memories, comments that ST did sit on the First Throne, specifically to prevent anyone else from doing so.


"He claimed the First Throne. The throne of the T'lan Imass."

Oh.

Fortunately," Apsalar continued, "as Shadowthrone, he has shown little interest in making use of his role as Emperor of the T'lan Imass."

"Well, why bother? This way, he negates the chance of anyone else finding and taking that throne, while his avoidance of using it himself ensures that no-one takes notice he has it in the first place - gods, I'm starting to sound like Kruppe! In any case, that seems clever, not cowardly."

Sorry, I should have realized that 'Shadowthrone' would cause confusion.
Try it this way. The Throne of Shadow is Edur - it is located on Drift Avali. It
does not compel the T'lan.

The First Throne Is T'lan. It is located on Quon Tali. Mortals can (in the past) compell the Imass
These two thrones are a bitch to remember and associate correctly.