[Venerus]

Yay second super-monster post in as many days! Not that interesting, mostly just a summary of stuff I don't get about RG that some of you probably think is really obvi.

Here we go, my top five from RG that I would *love* to have explained and can't find answers for on the forums:

Quote one!

Janath:

Quote

[under] almost the entire expanse of present-day Letheras could be found foundation walls, plazas or concourses, shaped wells, drainage ditches and, indeed, some form of cemetery or mortuary, and -- listen carefully now -- all of it not of human design. Nor Jaghut, nor even Tarthenal...
It appeared that in the final stages of occupation, the dwellers set about frantic alterations to their city. Qan's analysis of these efforts led him to conclude that a catastrophic climate change had occurred, for the efforts indicated a desperate attempt to add insulation. Presumably, that effort failed --

From earlier comments from Janath, whatever race it was preceded the Jaghut diaspora, so we're talking pre Imass ritual times. Races that might have preceded the Jaghut to settle there:
-KCCM
-Forkrul Assail(?)
-Eres
-Pre-ritual Imass
-Tiste

Who lived in Lether before it was Lether, before the humans arrived, and why the climate change/sudden freeze? Was it Omtose Phellack, maybe Gothos' ritual? An assault on the (maybe cold-blooded) KCCM? Confuzzled.


Quote two

Kuru Quan's ghost and the Errant:

Quote

"This is not our war, Errant."
"Oh, but it is. My war. Rhulad's war. The Crippled God's. After all, it is not the Elder Gods who so hunger to destroy the Fallen One."
"They would if they but understood, Errant. But they are blinded by the lure of resurrection -- as blinded as you, here, now. All but one, and that is the maker of the Warrens. K'rul himself. Errant, listen to me! To set the Holds against the Warrens, you declare war upon K'rul--"
No. Just his children. Children who will kill him if they can. They don't want him. He was gone, but now he walks the realms again, and drags with him the Tiles, the Holds, the ancient places he knew so well -- there is the real war, Ceda!"
"True, and K'rul's idiotic nostalgia is proving a most virulent poison -- although he is yet to realize that."

Ok, who are K'rul's children? Humans? Warrens? Dragons? Azath? Young/new gods?
and
The Elder Gods don't hunger to destroy the Crippled God? But but but... really? I thought Nightchill and Draconus were on K'rul's side. *cry*
and
K'rul's nostalgia is a virulent poison... is that an intentional ref. to the CG's warren-poison?


Quote three

Ublala Pung to Karsa:

Quote

The warrior shot another glance at Samar Dev, before saying, "War Leader, I have words. Of... of Rhulad Sengar, the Edur Emperor. Words... of his secret."

Ok, maybe Ublala is just telling him that Rhulad can't die, but that seems pretty obvious. I got the feeling from this scene that Ublala is actually the one who tells Karsa what the deal is with the sword and the connection to the CG. HOW THE HELL DOES UBLALA KNOW ANY OF THIS!?? Am confuse. Also, since when is Ublala in the Rat Catcher's guild? That one took me by surprise...


Quote four

Tavore's speech to the Bonehunters:

Quote

We shall be our own witness, and that will be enough. It must be enough. It must ever be enough.

Did Tavore just invert Karsa's warcry to band her army together? "Malazans! Unwitness!"

Quote five

Bugg w/Ublala:

Quote

"Where are you going? Where is everyone?"
Had Bugg told him then, in clear terms that Ublala Pung would comprehend, all might well have turned out differently. The Elder God would look back on this one moment, over all others, during his extended time of retrospection that followed. Had he spoken true -- "They're just gone, friend, and none of us will be back. Not for a long time. Maybe never. Take care of yourself, Ublala Pung, and 'ware your new god -- he is much more than he seems."

I'm so confused... what exactly would have changed, one way or the other, if he'd been open with Ublala? Specifically, what would have changed in the time Bugg was stuck in the altar, since presumably that's the "extended time of retrospection" that follows...? Does Bugg think Tehol and Janath might have been rescued earlier? Or not made Emperor and wifey/scholar/etc?


Annnnd that just about sums up my confusion with Reaper's Gale. Holler.

[Bent Halo]

Venerus;318871 said:

Yay second super-monster post in as many days! Not that interesting, mostly just a summary of stuff I don't get about RG that some of you probably think is really obvi.

Here we go, my top five from RG that I would *love* to have explained and can't find answers for on the forums:

Quote one!

Janath:


From earlier comments from Janath, whatever race it was preceded the Jaghut diaspora, so we're talking pre Imass ritual times. Races that might have preceded the Jaghut to settle there:
-KCCM
-Forkrul Assail(?)
-Eres
-Pre-ritual Imass
-Tiste

Who lived in Lether before it was Lether, before the humans arrived, and why the climate change/sudden freeze? Was it Omtose Phellack, maybe Gothos' ritual? An assault on the (maybe cold-blooded) KCCM? Confuzzled.


Quote two

Kuru Quan's ghost and the Errant:



Ok, who are K'rul's children? Humans? Warrens? Dragons? Azath? Young/new gods?
and
The Elder Gods don't hunger to destroy the Crippled God? But but but... really? I thought Nightchill and Draconus were on K'rul's side. *cry*
and
K'rul's nostalgia is a virulent poison... is that an intentional ref. to the CG's warren-poison?


Quote three

Ublala Pung to Karsa:



Ok, maybe Ublala is just telling him that Rhulad can't die, but that seems pretty obvious. I got the feeling from this scene that Ublala is actually the one who tells Karsa what the deal is with the sword and the connection to the CG. HOW THE HELL DOES UBLALA KNOW ANY OF THIS!?? Am confuse. Also, since when is Ublala in the Rat Catcher's guild? That one took me by surprise...


Quote four

Tavore's speech to the Bonehunters:



Did Tavore just invert Karsa's warcry to band her army together? "Malazans! Unwitness!"

Quote five

Bugg w/Ublala:



I'm so confused... what exactly would have changed, one way or the other, if he'd been open with Ublala? Specifically, what would have changed in the time Bugg was stuck in the altar, since presumably that's the "extended time of retrospection" that follows...? Does Bugg think Tehol and Janath might have been rescued earlier? Or not made Emperor and wifey/scholar/etc?


Annnnd that just about sums up my confusion with Reaper's Gale. Holler.

Okay...I am reading this book for the second time now and only about a third of the way in. I have a take on a couple of these only. First one to me the reference to insulating from the cold definately seems like Omtose Phellack or something akin to it...seems pretty straightforward but you never know.

As for the whole Bugg Ublala deal...I recall on my first read through that struck me as a seed planted yet to be discovered in a later book.

The thing about these books being so over the top with the twists and turns is its easy to get your wires crossed....the good thing is for me it gives them great re reading value. I got used to being half confused with this series early on....the writting style and interest of the current events I am reading are enough to keep me glued even when some of the twist and turns concerning the bigger picture will often spin my wheels.

[Aptorian]

Quote

Quote one!

Janath:
Quote:
[under] almost the entire expanse of present-day Letheras could be found foundation walls, plazas or concourses, shaped wells, drainage ditches and, indeed, some form of cemetery or mortuary, and -- listen carefully now -- all of it not of human design. Nor Jaghut, nor even Tarthenal...
It appeared that in the final stages of occupation, the dwellers set about frantic alterations to their city. Qan's analysis of these efforts led him to conclude that a catastrophic climate change had occurred, for the efforts indicated a desperate attempt to add insulation. Presumably, that effort failed --
From earlier comments from Janath, whatever race it was preceded the Jaghut diaspora, so we're talking pre Imass ritual times. Races that might have preceded the Jaghut to settle there:
-KCCM
-Forkrul Assail(?)
-Eres
-Pre-ritual Imass
-Tiste

Who lived in Lether before it was Lether, before the humans arrived, and why the climate change/sudden freeze? Was it Omtose Phellack, maybe Gothos' ritual? An assault on the (maybe cold-blooded) KCCM? Confuzzled.

I think KCCM is the most obvious connection. Not all KCCM died in the Tiste invasion. In fact I suspect that while it was a big defeat for the Lizards, it was the KCCMs own warlike nature that was killing them.

The insulation of the cities are of course connected to Gothos ritual. It would have affected all fo the continent.

Quote

Quote two

Kuru Quan's ghost and the Errant:

Quote:
"This is not our war, Errant."
"Oh, but it is. My war. Rhulad's war. The Crippled God's. After all, it is not the Elder Gods who so hunger to destroy the Fallen One."
"They would if they but understood, Errant. But they are blinded by the lure of resurrection -- as blinded as you, here, now. All but one, and that is the maker of the Warrens. K'rul himself. Errant, listen to me! To set the Holds against the Warrens, you declare war upon K'rul--"
No. Just his children. Children who will kill him if they can. They don't want him. He was gone, but now he walks the realms again, and drags with him the Tiles, the Holds, the ancient places he knew so well -- there is the real war, Ceda!"
"True, and K'rul's idiotic nostalgia is proving a most virulent poison -- although he is yet to realize that."

Ok, who are K'rul's children? Humans? Warrens? Dragons? Azath? Young/new gods?
and
The Elder Gods don't hunger to destroy the Crippled God? But but but... really? I thought Nightchill and Draconus were on K'rul's side. *cry*
and
K'rul's nostalgia is a virulent poison... is that an intentional ref. to the CG's warren-poison?

I think K'rulls "children" is the young gods of the Houses. They would kill the Elder Gods to avoid the ressurfacing of such old powers. Perhaps the Holds really are still able to fight against the houses.

While I do remember it sounding like Nightchill was against the Crippled God, Draconus and Nightchills real worry was the sword. They are concerned about Dragnipur and Mother Darks fate.

Quote

Quote three

Ublala Pung to Karsa:

Quote:
The warrior shot another glance at Samar Dev, before saying, "War Leader, I have words. Of... of Rhulad Sengar, the Edur Emperor. Words... of his secret."

Ok, maybe Ublala is just telling him that Rhulad can't die, but that seems pretty obvious. I got the feeling from this scene that Ublala is actually the one who tells Karsa what the deal is with the sword and the connection to the CG. HOW THE HELL DOES UBLALA KNOW ANY OF THIS!?? Am confuse. Also, since when is Ublala in the Rat Catcher's guild? That one took me by surprise...

Had Ublala met the Old Tarthenal guy at that point? Perhaps Tarthenal Spirits spoke to him.

Was it Ublala that worked with the Rat Cattcher? Are you sure you're not confusing him with the Tarthenal that killed Gerun Eberict? He's working for the Rat Catchers.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Bent Halo;318938 said:

Okay...I am reading this book for the second time now and only about a third of the way in. I have a take on a couple of these only. First one to me the reference to insulating from the cold definately seems like Omtose Phellack or something akin to it...seems pretty straightforward but you never know.

As for the whole Bugg Ublala deal...I recall on my first read through that struck me as a seed planted yet to be discovered in a later book.

The thing about these books being so over the top with the twists and turns is its easy to get your wires crossed....the good thing is for me it gives them great re reading value. I got used to being half confused with this series early on....the writting style and interest of the current events I am reading are enough to keep me glued even when some of the twist and turns concerning the bigger picture will often spin my wheels.

Maybe Bugg meant that if he told Ublala what had happened, he would do something about it. Try and free them with the help of the Rat Catchers Guild.

[Venerus]

All good stuff so far guys, thank you for giving input Sometimes SE's writing... it's so awesome and rich it actually needs multiple readers.

Aptorian;318962 said:

Was it Ublala that worked with the Rat Cattcher? Are you sure you're not confusing him with the Tarthenal that killed Gerun Eberict? He's working for the Rat Catchers.

Well, both, really. It was the Ublala one that surprised me though:

Ublala and Old Hunch:

Quote

Ublala Pung scratched his jaw. "I was told not to join in on things I know nothing about."
"Oh? And who told you that?"
"A fat woman named Rucket, when she got me to swear fealty to the Rat Catchers' Guild."
"The Rat Catchers' Guild?"
Ublala Pung shrugged. "I guess they catch rats, but I'm not sure really."

Must have been somewhere along the way in RG after Rucket started making herself fat. Maybe it's connected to the Bugg quote; maybe Ublala joined up while Tehol and Bugg and Janath were all "away".

[sparrow]

i remember a scene where ublala tells tehol that rucket/ormly pestered him into joining the rat catchers guild, made him swear oaths or some such thing, so ublala is definatley in the rat catchers.

[OtataralDragon]

The first time I read RG, I assumed the buried city under Letheras was the same as the dead FA city that Silchas Ruin brought Kettle to in MT. But those FA died violently, killed by Ruin and his draconic kin, so maybe not - and I can't remember anything suggesting the FA dislike cold, either.

[bhok'arala]

Ubala probably didn't even know he signed up, with that brain of his. he's still carrying around that sack of chickens at the end of the book right? he had it in the cememtary.

and if someone is concerned about draginpur, call paran!

[Raraku]

I think that the buildings under Letheras were KCCM but the hastily made changes for defence were against the dragons.
In RG Whither the Andii ghost with Ruin and co. was talking to Undinaas about how dragons came to a place they were crossing and destroyed the KCCM living there because of the Deathspell they made on the entire world.
Maybe this happened in letheras as well

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty sure the city was a KCCM one that was being insulated against Jaghut throwing OP around - the references to the KCCM city Ruin and co. visit and how it was built too early for them to need to hide it from their enemies seem to show that.

[bhok'arala]

and this was probably before the need to move their cities around on giant rocks.

the deathspell you speak of, would that be similar to what Kallor has done in the past?

[Illuyankas]

More the type of continent spanning ritual that Gothos does in Lether.

[Greymane]

Venerus;318871 said:

Yay second super-monster post in as many days! Not that interesting, mostly just a summary of stuff I don't get about RG that some of you probably think is really obvi.

Here we go, my top five from RG that I would *love* to have explained and can't find answers for on the forums:

Quote one!

Janath:

[under] almost the entire expanse of present-day Letheras could be found foundation walls, plazas or concourses, shaped wells, drainage ditches and, indeed, some form of cemetery or mortuary, and -- listen carefully now -- all of it not of human design. Nor Jaghut, nor even Tarthenal...
It appeared that in the final stages of occupation, the dwellers set about frantic alterations to their city. Qan's analysis of these efforts led him to conclude that a catastrophic climate change had occurred, for the efforts indicated a desperate attempt to add insulation. Presumably, that effort failed --

From earlier comments from Janath, whatever race it was preceded the Jaghut diaspora, so we're talking pre Imass ritual times. Races that might have preceded the Jaghut to settle there:
-KCCM
-Forkrul Assail(?)
-Eres
-Pre-ritual Imass
-Tiste

Who lived in Lether before it was Lether, before the humans arrived, and why the climate change/sudden freeze? Was it Omtose Phellack, maybe Gothos' ritual? An assault on the (maybe cold-blooded) KCCM? Confuzzled.

I don't know who the inhabitants of Pre-Lether were (if I had to guess I'd say Forkrul Assail), but the sudden climate change would be from Gothos Ritual. In other words, the "frantic alterations" took place in the weeks/months following the last battle between the Tiste Andii/Edur and the K'Chan Che Malle, which would have been somewhere north of resent day Letheras.

I'm as confused by 2 and 3 as you are.

Venerus;318871 said:

Quote four

Tavore's speech to the Bonehunters:

We shall be our own witness, and that will be enough. It must be enough. It must ever be enough.

Did Tavore just invert Karsa's warcry to band her army together? "Malazans! Unwitness!"

I took Tavore's meaning to be - deeds, in and of themselves, have merit. They don't need to be witnessed and acknowledged to be of worth.

Venerus;318871 said:

Quote five

Bugg w/Ublala:

"Where are you going? Where is everyone?"
Had Bugg told him then, in clear terms that Ublala Pung would comprehend, all might well have turned out differently. The Elder God would look back on this one moment, over all others, during his extended time of retrospection that followed. Had he spoken true -- "They're just gone, friend, and none of us will be back. Not for a long time. Maybe never. Take care of yourself, Ublala Pung, and 'ware your new god -- he is much more than he seems."

I'm so confused... what exactly would have changed, one way or the other, if he'd been open with Ublala? Specifically, what would have changed in the time Bugg was stuck in the altar, since presumably that's the "extended time of retrospection" that follows...? Does Bugg think Tehol and Janath might have been rescued earlier? Or not made Emperor and wifey/scholar/etc?

Presumably Bugg thinks Ublala could have rescued Tehol and Janath from the Patriotists. I don't really see what this would have changed in the long run, though.

[Bent Halo]

Greymane;320055 said:

I don't know who the inhabitants of Pre-Lether were (if I had to guess I'd say Forkrul Assail), but the sudden climate change would be from Gothos Ritual. In other words, the "frantic alterations" took place in the weeks/months following the last battle between the Tiste Andii/Edur and the K'Chan Che Malle, which would have been somewhere north of resent day Letheras.

I'm as confused by 2 and 3 as you are.



I took Tavore's meaning to be - deeds, in and of themselves, have merit. They don't need to be witnessed and acknowledged to be of worth.



Presumably Bugg thinks Ublala could have rescued Tehol and Janath from the Patriotists. I don't really see what this would have changed in the long run, though.

Thats part of why that strikes me as a possible seed for something later...who knows what. On the surface I couldn't figure out what that might have changed either but seems strange for SE to go out of the way to have this dialog if it wasn't going to lead to something somehow later on....but hell there are so many twists and turns in these books I wouldn't be suprised if something like this didn't amount to anything either. Only time will tell.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Bent Halo;320075 said:

Thats part of why that strikes me as a possible seed for something later...who knows what. On the surface I couldn't figure out what that might have changed either but seems strange for SE to go out of the way to have this dialog if it wasn't going to lead to something somehow later on....but hell there are so many twists and turns in these books I wouldn't be suprised if something like this didn't amount to anything either. Only time will tell.

He might have recruited Karsa Orlong... now there's a man on a mission.

[bhok'arala]

when tavore is talking about being witnessed, she tells her army that this time they are truly alone and have to do everything themselves, because this time, there is no empire to witness and celebrate.

[Venerus]

bhok said:

when tavore is talking about being witnessed, she tells her army that this time they are truly alone and have to do everything themselves, because this time, there is no empire to witness and celebrate.

Yes, I realize that. I was more wondering if anyone else thought it was an intentional parallel to Karsa or if it was just a coincidental use of the term.

[bhok'arala]

well, has tavore met with karsa before?

[Venerus]

bhok said:

well, has tavore met with karsa before?

On the off chance that wasn't rhetorical... yes, in HoC.

[OtataralDragon]

But he didn't use his catch phrase in that brief exchange.