Malazan Empire: One possible thesis statement for MBotF - Malazan Empire

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One possible thesis statement for MBotF

#1 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:42 AM

Here's what I'm proposing: the central conflicts in MBotF can, on one reading, be seen as a war between the short-sighted and those who take the long view.

This musing starts with a quote, from Mockra, the voice of the warrens:

Quote

“As K’rul understood, the blood flows out, and then it returns. Weak, then enlivened. Round and round. Who then, ask yourself, who then is the enemy?”


I can answer that one right now – whoever stops the blood from flowing round and round. Whoever works to break that cycle works to end all existence.

There are many short term reasons to slow the flow, as with the Imass Bonecaster in the Refugium. As per Menandore and Udinaas:

Quote

“That foolish Imass Bonecaster who thought she could seal [SD’s gate] with her own soul.” Menandore sneered. “K’rul’s heart! Did she not know how that weakened him? Weakened everything?”


But she did save her people from the monsters coming through that gate, didn’t she (see MT for details)? Now Udinaas describing the effects of the Imass’s actions on the residents of SD:

Quote

“Like blue flies on the sill of a window,” Udinaas had said. “Wrong side, trying to get out. But the window stayed closed. To them, maybe to everyone, every thing. Or… maybe not every thing.”


Dragons feed on magic/are beings of magic; with the clot in the circulation, the blood didn't flow, and they died. The Imass’s sacrifice saved her people in the short term, but it threatened/weakened all existence. Her life and sacrifice serve as allegory for all the mortals SE describes– people sacrifice for each other so that life can continue.

The cost of those sacrifices is the harm to the grander order of things even as they help shape the minutiae – I think I start to see why SE writes about sacrifices to Gods so often, and why the Gods often seem indifferent to or outright hate the practice. Sacrifices might help in the short term or narrow view, but at their core is a world-destroying practice.

There’s a second facet here too – sacrifices serve to bind things in place. The binding protects the status quo, and so preserves life while that status quo itself destroys the natural order. Draconus:

Quote

'Hear me, please. Before the Houses, there were Holds. Before Holds, there was wandering. Your own words, yes? But you were both right and wrong. Not wandering, but migration. A seasonal round—predictable, cyclical. What seemed aimless, random, was in truth fixed, bound to its own laws. A truth—a power—I failed to recognize.'
'So the shattering of Dragnipur will release the Gate once more—to its migration.'
'To what gave it its own strength to resist Chaos, yes. Dragnipur has bound the Gate of Darkness to flight, for eternity—but should the souls chained to it diminish—'
'The flight slows down—'
'Fatally.'
'So, either Rake begins killing—taking souls—or Dragnipur must be destroyed.'
'The former is necessary—to buy us time—until the latter occurs. The sword must be shattered. The purpose of its very existence was misguided. Besides which, there is another truth I have but stumbled on—far too late for it to make any difference. At least to me.'
'And that is?'
'Just as Chaos possesses the capacity to act in its own defence, to indeed alter its own nature to its own advantage in its eternal war, so too can Order. It is not solely bound to Darkness. It understands, if you will, the value of balance.'
Paran felt an intuitive flash. 'The Houses of the Azath. The Deck of Dragons.'
The hooded head shifted slightly and Paran felt cold, unhuman eyes fixing upon him. 'Aye, Ganoes Paran.'
'The Houses take souls…'
'And bind them in place.
Beyond the grasp of Chaos.'


I think this places the Azath squarely in the “universe destroying” camp, btw. Sure, they preserve the status quo and order, and in so doing protect life, but by binding things down beyond their migrations they are effectively clotting the blood, so they’re also destroying the dynamism of the forces of existence. Dragnipur, the Imass’s sacrifice – bad things, ultimately. I mean, take Kilava’s observation:

Kilava:

Quote

“Onrack, soon these gates will be sealed, each and all drawn into the House, into a squat, clumsy tower. And this realm – with an Azath House here, this realm no longer wanders, no longer fades. It is rooted, and so it will remain.”


Sealing gates = bad news, as we’ve just read. And now the Azath is sealing those gates ☹

One side in the war to come (mentioned in the TtH prologue) are the mortals who want to (or have to?) make sacrifices, seal little bits of that blood to carve out lives. Of course, most mortals are so short-lived and therefore short-sighted that they do not realize they’re destroying/weakening the foundations of existence. Or maybe they don’t care, or necessity drives them on, or other. Then again:

Quote

'Whiskeyjack, we're the Malazans, remember? Nothing we do is ever supposed to reveal a hint of our long-term plans—mortal empires aren't supposed to think that far ahead.



I think this is all leading up to a thesis statement: the two sides in MBotF aren’t Good vs Bad, but Short-Term goals conflicting with Long-Term goals. Extrapolating, the war to come in TtH will shape up with those sides.
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#2 User is offline   Regaez 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:39 AM

Wow.

How the hell did you think of all that?
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#3 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:48 AM

Impressive post!

I'm not sure about the correctness of all stated implications, however the initial one (about the dragons) is brilliant! I never managed to wire things up about the refugium and the gate to SD.

alas, it won't let me rep you for some reason.. nah
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#4 User is offline   Mushroom 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:58 AM

Good Work, Me thinks...
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#5 User is offline   Pig Iron 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:59 AM

One of the most enlightening posts I've read. I'm not very knowledgable, but I think you're on to something. Thanks.
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#6 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:09 AM

About the dragons and SD. I don't think we're supposed to believe it was one Boncecaster that killed them by messing with one portal.

There has been mentioned an event called the last flight of the eleint. I also think there is some mention of Elder Gods being involved in the sealing of SD.

I remember there was another thread not so long ago, that theorised that the Eleint were too dangerous, to chaotic and wild to be left lose. Perhaps it has something to do with their elemental nature. Anyway, when the time of the holds ended and the new warrens were birthed, the dragons had to go.

Some dragons helped K'rull but the rest were sealed inside SD.
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#7 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 11:35 AM

Eeeenteresting. I suppose it makes sense though; not like all the dragons have to agree to help K'rul, and we already know that some dragons turned around and tried to impose their will on the new warrens (KE etc).

So, do you think it's actually a good thing that SD's gate is now sealed in the Azath? Hm... is Udinaas hinting that magic can still get in and out of SD, just not the residents? Or maybe he's referring to Mockra...


Edit: How did someone manage to anonymously neg-rep me for that post? Weird. Sorry to whoever I offended, I guess?
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#8 User is offline   stejen 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 11:51 AM

It seems to me that Venerus is trying to make 2 deferent things into one.

To me mystery of Magic and k'ruls sacrifice is not the same as Order and its eternal struggle against Chaos.
I also don't see it as clear cut what helps in the Order/chaos conflict and what works against it.

I mean if one of the Elder gods got it so wrong in making Dragnipur
(One would think they would know the most about it) how can any mortal be sure that their actions works in favor of one or the other?

Also the azath traps beings that would empower chaos if they died and joined it. So how is the azath working against order?

We also hear in other places that the gates are wounds and that it can really hurt a realm/warren/hold if they are not closed.
So the azath sealing a wound would be a good thing.
Plus if any one with dragon blood can open a gate into the dragon hold you would think they could open one out of it again.
So the things lay inside the gate was properly not dragons. (I don't remember what kind of creatures they were,
I just remember comments from the party that the dead dragons looked peaceful.)

Hope this makes some kind of sense.
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#9 User is offline   lasombra 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:17 PM

i dont think the SD gates r completly sealed in the azath. i think it is said shadowthrone and cot mite have acces SD via the azath. quote

In that Azath House there will be a tower, and in that tower, all the gates.'
'so?'
'Just this. Shadowthrone, and Cotillion. Who like using the Azath whenever it suits them. Now they've got a way in. Not just to this real, eaither.' RG pg 810 uk

So the gates r open but they r located in the Azath. Which presents a problem yes.

But Remember in DG ( i think) while fidler and crew are in azath dragon/s flies over them. i dont not have a copy of the 1ste 2 novels so i cant quote
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#10 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:35 PM

stejen;317425 said:

It seems to me that Venerus is trying to make 2 deferent things into one.

To me mystery of Magic and k'ruls sacrifice is not the same as Order and its eternal struggle against Chaos.
I also don't see it as clear cut what helps in the Order/chaos conflict and what works against it.


I think my poor writing has confused you. I totally agree that they're different conflicts -- but I didn't think I was relating (or didn't mean to, anyway) the Order/Chaos thing to the Short-term/long-term thing. Not intentionally, anyway.

stejen;317425 said:

Also the azath traps beings that would empower chaos if they died and joined it. So how is the azath working against order?


I don't think the Azath is working against Order; I certainly didn't mean to say that if I did. What I was trying to say was that their role of sealing is a short-term good, long-term bad.

@Lasombra -- you're right, the gates might not be sealed. I was just going with what Kilava said.
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#11 User is offline   lasombra 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 03:52 PM

Venerus;317237 said:

I think this places the Azath squarely in the “universe destroying” camp, btw. Sure, they preserve the status quo and order, and in so doing protect life, but by binding things down beyond their migrations they are effectively clotting the blood, so they’re also destroying the dynamism of the forces of existence. Dragnipur, the Imass’s sacrifice – bad things, ultimately. I mean, take Kilava’s observation:



Azath mite bind things in place but for good reason.If they are destroyd/removed they weakin the fabric.

quote

And so the House died weakening the fabric...' HoC pg 518 uk

So an Azath house also holds the fabric of magic/life/matter together/strong

duno exactly what fabric but yeh
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#12 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 10:21 PM

what i think ven means with the azath being a possible bad thing is that it constricts the flow of power, this is a imposition of order. its nearly the same thing said in different words.

now the azath dont seal the gates, they just make it insanely hard for people to get too. magical power can still flow through them, people use magic every day, the only thing is that the main gate into SD, one of the chambers to kruls heart was Sealed with a soul. i believe SD is the chamber that pumps power out into the rest of the paths and wit that sealing the power flow was weakened. thinkin about other gates to SD doesn't bear much fruit. perhaps the few pure blood dragons around have gates to SD in their throats much like Rake has a gate to KG in his.
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#13 User is offline   Dexter Spinner of Death 

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 06:42 AM

so...... heres a doozy. if the azath hold the fabric of magic together, what is the azaths relationship with K'rul????
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#14 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:35 AM

great post, have rep. I am not sure you are correct, but the theory is very entertaining to read and that is almost as important :)
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#15 User is offline   Seed 

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:18 AM

wow, all interesting posts, great thread starter. Nice and thought provoking.

I believe the Azath network was already on it's way to being established in the local world um region when k'rul did his bloodletting. If the warrens are his veins and arteries, I believe he wound them around the azaths roots and boughs the touch almost all places as if it were a skeleton. Since the Azath was already conveniently existing structure and order twining through chaos.

I wonder how far we could stretch the whole body system analogy to cover the warren metaphysics. There's a circulatory system, a body of the world, why not a skeleton to anchor it all in place.

Hmm, here's an interesting thought. Back in the dim dark days prior to modern warren formation, the holds,elder warrens wandered around, migrated. Back then all the stomping around and infighting of ascendants probably resulted in more and more Azath springing up all over the many worlds/warrens binding them closer and choking their natural migrations. Along with general rips and tears from power abuses. A major scale vunerability to chaos that wasn't immediately obvious and was affecting everywhere. K'rul eventually divined what was happening and decided and major reformat was needed to protect everything from coming down in a screaming chaos heap. Chaos would eventually overrun the silting up elder hold/warren system, so he introduced some circulation to keep everything fresh and chaos free. Thus started the age of modern warrens. Now with all the CG goings on the time is looming for the next reformat...

-Seed ...the hip bone is connected to shadowkeep o/~
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