[Macros]

The problem with affirmative action is that its rarely two candidate neck and neck decided by race, its somone better qualified not getting a job because of their race.

[Slum]

Affirmative action is simply a means of making sure that those who've been historically excluded from certain fields are given a fair shot at succeeding in those fields. It's more about preventing rampant nepotism and "good-old-boy clubs" than putting undeserving applicants at an advantage because of their race. And really, you can lose out on a job to an under-qualified applicant of the same race just as easy as getting passed over to fulfill a quota.


Edit: That said...I do share the opinion that race shouldn't be the deciding factor. If an employer can provide evidence that he hired an employee based solely on the quality of their credentials/interview rather than an ethnic bias...well, then, I don't see any problem.

[Optimus Prime]

Macros;317731 said:

The problem with affirmative action is that its rarely two candidate neck and neck decided by race, its somone better qualified not getting a job because of their race.

That's not always the case. I hear all these idiots over here saying that "those damn immigrants are stealing all our jobs". Oh really? How many white people do I see applying for the housekeeping jobs, facilities jobs, and other entry positions at my hotel. Answer? A few leaning towards ZERO.

About affirmative action. So what....we just expect a repressed people to pick themselves off the mat after 300+ years of inequality?!?! That's just ignorant.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

amphibian;317605 said:

Why do males continue to make more money than females? We gave them the right to vote, passed a whole passel of laws, and stopped thinking of them as inferiors. Didn't we?

Despite your thinking, white privilege is a very real fact and should be included in any honest discussion of racism and the continuing disparity between "races".

I didnt mention a thing about males and females.

I grew up in Wembley NW London, which is a multi-cultural place to say the least, and I can tell you for a fact that being white was in no way a benefit for me. I lived in a council estate with every other creed, and no one had any advantages over anyone else. But I will say this, none of my black mates got mugged on the way to school, most of my white mates did.

[Macros]

Quote

Affirmative action is simply a means of making sure that those who've been historically excluded from certain fields are given a fair shot at succeeding in those fields. It's more about preventing rampant nepotism and "good-old-boy clubs" than putting undeserving applicants at an advantage because of their race. And really, you can lose out on a job to an under-qualified applicant of the same race just as easy as getting passed over to fulfill a quota.

By affirmative action I mean those "quotas" there shouldnt be any race/ background fields on an application, a quota for certain race categories is racist, plain and simple, it is descrimination. Jobs should be given solely on ability, race should be a last resort decider, if two people are equally qualified then push the race card, a last resort, not hiring someone considerably less qualified because the government insists you have a certain amount of *insert your desire race/ ethnicity here*

[Optimus Prime]

Slumgullion Spitteler;317733 said:

Affirmative action is simply a means of making sure that those who've been historically excluded from certain fields are given a fair shot at succeeding in those fields. It's more about preventing rampant nepotism and "good-old-boy clubs" than putting undeserving applicants at an advantage because of their race. And really, you can lose out on a job to an under-qualified applicant of the same race just as easy as getting passed over to fulfill a quota.

Did you not read Slum's post? This is the truth. It's a way of making sure those who, in the past WERE EXCLUDED FROM THESE JOBS, have a chance. It's something that was needed after the Civil Right's Act.

[Macros]

his edit makes it more clear what he meant, my apologies

[Slum]

10 Myths About Affirmative Action


I think this kind of gets at what we're all arguing about.


It's not all that recent though. Still, it has some good points.

[amphibian]

Shinrei no Shintai;317716 said:

Affirmative action just sounds like more of the philosophy of "if government doesn't fix the problem, it doesn't get fixed", which I think is absolute HS. The perceptions of the people, especially in the younger generations are changing and things will continue to get better for minorities in this country. I'm more confident that the necessary change comes from people making a difference, not government acting as referees as Amp puts it.

Government of the people, by the people and for the people. The people are indeed the primary movers and shakers, and the government usually lags in effecting change. What the laws and agencies are good at is keeping the momentum going forwards and coordinating the disparate groups.

The Tyrant Lizard;317738 said:

I didnt mention a thing about males and females.

I should have been more clear: white privilege, just like gender bias, still exists and significantly influences the lives of people after decades of legislation and societal adjustments.

Quote

I grew up in Wembley NW London, which is a multi-cultural place to say the least, and I can tell you for a fact that being white was in no way a benefit for me. I lived in a council estate with every other creed, and no one had any advantages over anyone else. But I will say this, none of my black mates got mugged on the way to school, most of my white mates did.

This is straight up solipsism.

[Macros]

first up, wtf is solipsism?

thats actually an interesting article slum, well presented and clear (unlike the majourity of my offerings) but I cant agree with some parts of it

Quote

Myth #7: You can't cure discrimination with discrimination.

The problem with this myth is that it uses the same word—discrimination—to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion. The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does. The logic of affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating a nutritional deficiency with vitamin supplements. For a healthy person, high doses of vitamin supplements may be unnecessary or even harmful, but for a person whose system is out of balance, supplements are an efficient way to restore the body's balance.

this is wrong, when someone is forced to hire a person because of their race it IS descrimination, this articel just prettifies the face of it. It doesnt addres the issue of underqualified people getting jobs because of race in the name of AA.
whilst point 10 does argue for what I'm saying it disregards the fact that alot of agencies now run on "quota" systems of AA which DO place lesser qualified candidates becasue of race and exclude willing applicant because of a lack of *insert gender/whatever minority here*

good posting though slug

ETA : I was sorely tempted to post a link to with apologies to jesse jackson earlier in the thread but we've moved more into employment territory than the n word

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Macros;317731 said:

The problem with affirmative action is that its rarely two candidate neck and neck decided by race, its somone better qualified not getting a job because of their race.

Is this a fact, or a perception created by people saying it's true with no real basis other than they heard it was so?

[Macros]

for a start I've never heard of (read about, spoken to people about, been in the company involved) two candidates being neck and neck, theres always been a winner either by simple qualifications/ experience or simply a far better interview.
I know several people who have either: been automatically ruled out of a job because they're white and the "quota" for whites was full; held in stasis for a long time (to the point of giving up) because the "recruitment pool" was to biased to a cerrtain demograph (correct word?); or because the company simply needed a "token" and hired a completely inferious candidate.
As for a fact on the matter, no I can't pull one up unless you want me to start making stuff up(possibly entertaining but likely not), but I've seen enough of it to believe its more widespread than what I've seen (going by the rule of for every rat you see theres a hundred more, etc).
Somebody even said earlier in the thread that in norway (?) companies were forced to put women on the boards regardless of their experience or suitability, and sometihng similar wass in SA (?) wherre guys really had no idea what the hell they were doing and just played video games. thats fucking ridiculous imo

[Shinrei]

Quote

About affirmative action. So what....we just expect a repressed people to pick themselves off the mat after 300+ years of inequality?!?! That's just ignorant.

But if they did, they wouldn't be the first.....

A problem is that both communities cling to the "us and them" view, and blacks are every bit as guilty as whites. I don't see how affirmative action does anything to help combat this, as by its nature it has to define people by the color of their skin.

[Optimus Prime]

Shinrei no Shintai;318034 said:

But if they did, they wouldn't be the first.....

A problem is that both communities cling to the "us and them" view, and blacks are every bit as guilty as whites. I don't see how affirmative action does anything to help combat this, as by its nature it has to define people by the color of their skin.

They need more than 40 years Shin. Look at the Native Americans....that culture is still dealing with issues that started a long time ago. You've got to walk in those shoes before you can know.

It takes a collaborative effort with people. We all need to help each other. Naive? Maybe. Hopeless? I hope not.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Hopeless? No, but it's not happening in this country.

Also- people have unrealistic expectations, as well as a propensity to milk the system.
1 makes people unsatisfied with the current rewards system, the other makes them unhappy with the rewards.

[Optimus Prime]

Racists just.....piss me off...it's a hot button issue for me. I just can't tolerate it.

It comes down to fear. Ignorant people are afraid of what they don't know or understand. My younger brother, who is homosexual, deals with this all the time. You would not believe how often he gets harassed. Makes me want to kill people.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Yep. And fear is the prime motivator for an ignorance of that kind. Vicious cycle really.

[Silencer]

I don't get the whole fear/ignorance thing. It just seems to me if you're afraid of something you kill it. You don't try and subjugate it.
And how does fear lead to ignorance? Surely "know your enemies" applies to things you are afraid of?
While I agree that racism is bad, the thing I think is WORSE is baseless reverse-racism. This is where someone tries to claim something against someone because of their race - it's like a Native American coming and trying to get some part of New York for their own based on their race.
If everyone could just give the whole reparations thing up, then racism would go away - part of what is annoying white people is the whole "you owe us" thing - it simply creates an "us" and "them" mentality. Which is what people supposedly want to get rid of anyway!

And I agree with Shinrei's latest post - by having quotas/whatever, by simply making racism a term, it defines people by skin color or background, which is in itself racism/discrimination.

[stone monkey]

If they hadn't been fucked over for it, it'd still be theirs....

As for the subjugation thing, one way of overcoming your fear of someone who's different to you is to arrange to humiliate and debase them and everyone like them for, oh say a few centuries. Of course what this does is build in a new fear, namely what these people might do to you if they ever get away from your control...

Fear quite easily leads to ignorance (and vice versa in my experience) having met a number of people in my lifetime who were terrified of me simply because of the colour of my skin without actually having any knowledge of anything about me or the culture I'm from. They just thought that black people were violent and stupid; and that was that.

I personallly don't agree with reparations, too long has passed. But I can quite easily see why certain sections of various communities might. If you want to look merely at the Native American case; treaties were made in good faith by the various Native American Nations and then repeatedly broken by US government and no reparations made for this (for background I'd advise reading Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee by Dee Brown - if the thing doesn't simultaneously make you extremely annoyed and want to weep you are dead inside)

Any number of books about the slave trade will tell you about the treaties made by slaveholding Nations with the various African nations that were reneged upon. At least one African King found himself overthrown (and ironically enough, enslaved) by the British when trying to end the trade in his nation.

Although, as I learned from bitter experience at an early age and the history of at least the past century or so teaches; the most dangerous thing in the world is a large group of white people.

[Nightmare]

stone monkey;318313 said:

Although, as I learned from bitter experience at an early age and the history of at least the past century or so teaches; the most dangerous thing in the world is a large group of white people.

Sounds a bit racist to me. What about the large groups of non-white people in Darfur, are they not dangerous?