[Mentalist]

lol, im sorry, they all got sent to Siberia in the 20s....

but yes, I dislike this clumping of all white people in the same category. I can honestly tell you that my anscestors have never even SEEN, much less exploited a black person. why must I feel guilty and feel that I owe something to them?

(And believe it or not, I'm not being racist. it's an academic question. Despite my upbringing, I try my best to be tolerant and non-discriminating to everyone.)

[Macros]

Same as that, regardless of my station in life, were i to get "shafted" by AA it would be for a crime i did not commit nor my ancestors involved in commiting.
They were likely too busy grubing for potatoes and breaking teeth on indian corn

[Shinrei]

Hmm, that got me thinking that we should actually EXPAND affirmative action.

Because in the USA the North beat the South and the North tends to be wealthier and holds more manufacturing and big business jobs we should make it so anyone proving citizenship in a Southern state should get preference for a job in the North. That'll help all those poor Southerners get out of poverty.

We could come up with a lot of these I bet.

[Obdigore]

Shinrei no Shintai;321181 said:

Hmm, that got me thinking that we should actually EXPAND affirmative action.

Because in the USA the North beat the South and the North tends to be wealthier and holds more manufacturing and big business jobs we should make it so anyone proving citizenship in a Southern state should get preference for a job in the North. That'll help all those poor Southerners get out of poverty.

We could come up with a lot of these I bet.

Why this exercise in futility?

AA is racist. It is attempting to treat a symptom instead of the underlying problem. Does anyone disagree with those two sentences?

[Mentalist]

Shin, but then you get immigrants that get shafted by AA--yes, I know, there's the argument of "they knew what they were getting into" and all, but still
I certainly didn't benefit from the exploitation of other races by White Western-Europeans in any tangible manner. but those that propose AA won't be looking at that.
I'm being assigned as a recipient of a feeling of collective guilt, without real evidence for why it should be so.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Mentalist;321165 said:

lol, im sorry, they all got sent to Siberia in the 20s....

but yes, I dislike this clumping of all white people in the same category. I can honestly tell you that my anscestors have never even SEEN, much less exploited a black person. why must I feel guilty and feel that I owe something to them?

(And believe it or not, I'm not being racist. it's an academic question. Despite my upbringing, I try my best to be tolerant and non-discriminating to everyone.)

I agree. I feel no guilt whatsoever about the slave trade - why should I?

It was a terrible thing, but I had nothing to do with it, niether did anyone in my direct family. Those people who started the slave trade, and those that continued it are, in my opinion, the only ones who can possibly be blamed for it, and asking anyone else to be held responsible, or even to be made to recompense, is wrong.

That is similar to sending me to prison because my great grandfather committed a war crime on WW1 or making me pay his wife's debts that she ran up gambling while he was abroad fighting.

[Urb]

Who said you should feel guilty?
Where did that come from?

@Obdigore
It's all politics, so they have to settle with some sort of compromise. In theory, you could do what Shinrei is talking about (give everyone an equal opportunitiy). But in reality, the politicians would never agree with eachother (they all have different equally important priorities), and nothing would happen. To do something as drastic as treating the underlying problem is far beyond the system as it stands today. Unless maybe you have some kind of superpolitician, who is really good at his/her job and manages to get everyone on his/her side. Could happen, I guess. Governator anyone?

[Obdigore]

Urb;321257 said:

Who said you should feel guilty?
Where did that come from?

@Obdigore
It's all politics, so they have to settle with some sort of compromise. In theory, you could do what Shinrei is talking about (give everyone an equal opportunitiy). But in reality, the politicians would never agree with eachother (they all have different equally important priorities), and nothing would happen. To do something as drastic as treating the underlying problem is far beyond the system as it stands today. Unless maybe you have some kind of superpolitician, who is really good at his/her job and manages to get everyone on his/her side. Could happen, I guess. Governator anyone?

Elect me emperor of the world. All of these racial divides would fade as you all suffer under the heel of my crushing boot of government power.

Or, you know, I would make people responsable for their own actions, increase education monies, and get rid of AA.

[Shinrei]

Um.... if you'd read my opinion on this you'd realize I was being sarcastic.

Personally I think we should require the Mongolians of today to pay reparations for the damage the Golden Horde wrought on the middle east, russia and europe....

[Mentalist]

Urb: that's the kind of attitude i feel from some of this--that simply be being born in a white family I've already been "entitled" to some "ill-gained" privilege.
Which in htis case is total BS.
the fact that by far not all white people were involved in slave trade, slavery. etc doesn't seem to phase the proponents of said argument.
In laws school applications, we are asked to list if we're a visible minority. Believe it or not, I AM a minority-I am a Ukrainian-speaking immigrant, and Ukrainians make up (according to some) 3% of the population. but, hell, i'm not a visible minority, so I get lumped in with a majority
(Now I'm not asking for special status here--God forbid, but i do dislike the term "visible minority" a lot)

[The Archivist]

Oddly, Mentalist, I understand what you are saying ... the question becomes are you suggesting that no one should feel guilt about the issues that still plague the country or are you simplying saying don't blame me. I understand the second ... the first is more problematic ...

Part of citizenship in Canada is the willingness to become part of solutions to unredressed issues of the past ... this is the basis of our laws... so to whit, yes, it is part of your citizenship to abide by the laws of the country ... are they fair to you specifically? Hmmm ... no ... however, you get to partake in the economic prosperity which in no large part was gained from that racism. Don't believe me ... check out the estimated value of the lands not under treaty for Native people ... *chuckles* and please, they were not conquered ... not in the legal sense anyway ...

*edit* I am in no way suggesting Mentalist is a racist ... Canada as a country is an awesome place ... oddly, I like the attempt at redress that is AA ... but I also understand the resentment of the majority to being treated in the same fashion as those who have been biased against.... bottom line: the irony of bias to eliminate bias seems too ... tooo ... ahh ... ironic ... *an old man's cackle follows*

[Shinrei]

And for what it's worth, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm planning on emmigrating to Japan, and you won't see me hoping for some form affirmative action legistlation helping me get a job there.

What Japan DOES need to do is get rid of its discriminatory retention practices, but that's another story entirely.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Thats refreshing. someone who is electing to become a minority, but not demanding something because of it.

You make a valid point - just because someone is part of a minority, that doesn't mean they should be elevated to special status.

[Mentalist]

Well, I mean if we're trying to deal with discriminations + prejudice than shouldn't we be trying to break the us vs them groups? (In theory, ofc--I'm not a high-spirited idealist)

The Archivist, the Native situation is a complex one. While I feel moral outrage for what has been done to the native population, since there is still no clear ansver as to what the Natives want to do, it's hard to think of solutoins..

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I'm all for a multi-cultural society, but not so hot on multi-cultural societIES. Where I live in London you have various areas where certain people seem to congrigate, and then when someone of a different creed walks through they're looked at funnily. I'd rather it if everyone just lived everywhere, with streets being white, black, asian, oriental, and then back again, not a white street and then a black one and so on.

but I suppose, people feel more comfortable with their own kind. Which is why certain pubs are used soley by blacks or asians, and others used only by white folk. I dont know if thats racism, but that certainly seems to be the case in most instances. I find that those people of ethnic origin that do mingle more with white people seem to have adopted the local way of life more, and speak with a local accent.

Another example of this segregation is in some of these jails you see around the world, and in these cases people are usually drawn together for protection - but I think in these instances, racialism is in ample supply.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Mentalist;321124 said:

Question: how do I benefit from the centuries of discrimination
Question: Must I accept this sense of "guilt" as package deal of my citizenship?

Answer: Every time you apply for a job, loan, or apartment and aren't turned away for being black, you benefit. Every time you don't get pulled over and harassed by the police for being black you benefit. Every time you go into a store and don't have security follow you around for being black. When you move into a nicer neighborhood, and aren't made to feel unwelcome or flat out told to leave because you are black. I could go on, but you get the point.

Answer: No one says (or at least I don't say) you should feel guilty. Just recognize that there are serious problems that aren't going to go away on their own.

[The Archivist]

Mentalist:
Aye, it is a bugger of a situation but it is becoming more and more clear that their situation is a case of ongoing and systematic abuse. (witness: The Anglican Church of Canada almost went bankrupt trying to cover the damages it owed for letting hundreds of children be abused in their schools.... The weirdest thing that I get from this situation is the society who messed the Native peoples up tends to point at them and say ... "they are too messed up to help!") *sighs and shakes his head* This is wrong on many levels but really ... these Canadians need take some responsibility ... we benefited from their abuse by and letting our government grab their land then making sure they were not in a position to protest ...

Personal Rant: Canadians, young old and recently arrived need to stop saying it is not something I did ... and say fix this (the Native situation)... it is wrong and hurts our country's "collective soul" as much as slavery did the American one. And for the record .. there is no Native people ... there are Native peoples ... like expecting all of Europe to come to a consensus to deal with a problem ... not going to happen ... deal with each individual group... *holds his head* I know not an easy thing ... but, alas, the right thing ....

*note: Native people were considered legal "minors" until 1960, yes this means no vote and the government controlled all personal property and they lacked the freedom of movement ... yet they had the highest enlistment for both WWI and WWII by "ethnicity." This lack of freedoms ended the moment you legally agreed not to be Native. *chuckles* Ask yourself why the Government would want them to do this.

To our South African compatriot:

Did you know that one of the men who set up the South African "homelands" was hired by the Canadian government to run Native reservations in Canada during the 1920s. He was particularly fond of ivory handled pistols and a "bull whip." *sighs* So do not feel too bad ... there is plenty of bad stuff to go around ... but apartheid was a pretty horrid thing according to those I have interviewed about it ... both European descended and African.

To some others:
*sighs* anyone who wonders whether history is important to the present in a legal sense should really do some reading ... yes, what happened in the past matters to ownership now ... it is the basis of our western laws ... and yes, past wrongs especially matter if they are still ongoing... but more importantly, the moral bankruptcy of saying "not my problem" and "that was in the past" is how Jim Crowe laws survived in the states and how racism survives now ... it is not in the past ... it still survives ... come help us stomp it out ...


to paraphrase Rowlings ...

Now is the time to choose between what is right and what is easy ... we have been doing the easy thing for too long ...

[The Archivist]

Sorry, it is the History lecturer in me.

A book to ponder if you can get it is

The Crabgrass Frontier ... *coughs*

it points out the amazing benefits of being in the majority in the US.
Especially when dealing with property loans and acquiring them for certain areas.

People ... honestly, if you think that being a visible minority is not a hinderance in North America (or not being a visible minority is not an advantage) financially, professionally and socially ... you need to do some reading ... and some analysis ...

*chuckles* racism is like global warming ... most people will pay it no mind until they get burned themselves ... sorry for ranting ... it is the academic in me.

*laughs long and loud at his own pomposity*

[Terez]

Mentalist;321124 said:

Interesting thread you guys have going here]

I am a first-generation immigrant into Canada
I am a white male. My anscestors were serfs in Tsarist Russia/Austria-Hungary round the same time the Blacks' anscestors were slaves in the New world (were emancip[ated round the same time too-1860s)
Question: how do I benefit from the centuries of discrimination
Question: Must I accept this sense of "guilt" as package deal of my citizenship?

This isn't about paying for past grievances, imo; it's about equalizing a system that is currently unequal. The situation of the past has created the current situation in the US, and in South Africa as well, but it's the current situation that's relevant.

[Slum]

I found this on MSN today.


What do you guys think? Could there possibly be a genetic basis for racial disparity?

I don't buy it, and I'm probably opening a new can of worms here...but give it a look-see.