[Macros]

Please, in advance, I am not a terribly politically correct person, I'm not racist (I would do halle berry in a second (well maybe 4.5, give me some credit) but I'm somewhat... uncultured and old fashioned.

In this day and age I feel racism is bullshit.
slavery has been long abolished, we have no emancipated slaves, or direct children of emancipated slaves to take umbrage with the stigmata associated with the ideal.
A quick aside, remember the episode of scrubs where JD has his first date with kylie and says the word "slave" in front of her and freaks out? thats what I'm talking about.
Slavery is a non-issue, calling people "african american" only brings it back into context. The phrase african american should be eradicated.
They're AMERICAN and probably damned proud to be (god only knows why but thats a whole other can of worms) any links to africe were burned out a good 200 years ago, get over it.
Yes I know that theres still plenty of racists out there, but its not like they're out whiping the blacks (I always forget, is the currently acceptable terminology black or coloured? whats the diff? honestly I would like to know) and sending them back to the cotton fields (where they belong, only joking)
What gets my goat (I dont actually have a goat, but I love that turn of phrase) is how racism has swung in the opposite direction now, to the point where the majourity are disadvantaged by it. Seriously
As I have already said, I'm not a racist, hell I even have a pakaistani friend, he works in the kebab shop (sounds like a poor joke, its not, well it sort of is to us but in the ideas of a racism discussion its not a random poor joke) but its got to the stage where the white man (hombre ftw) has to constantl;y watch everything he says and does for fear of a lawsuit.
Take the english education board, in certain areas its virtually impossible to get a teaching job if you're a regular white guy. They've taken surveys and the like, the populatin demograph (is that te woprd i want?) suggest they need more asian/ insert foreign ethnicitriy here teachers, so they work out a percentage, if enough johny foreigners dont fillt he slots, they go short staffed.
Its fucking ridiculous, qualified people cant get jobs because of their skin colour/ ethnic background.
That qualifies as racism in my book.
How about everyone wises up and we give the jobs to the MOST QUALIFIED PERSON regardless of race.
In fact (an I have disabled relative and support all initatives to rehabilitate and involve them) for every job, the "equal oppourtunities" act should be scraped and replaced by my common sense act.
Whoever is best able to do the job wins.
For example, the military, clerks, pencil pushers, whatever, EVERY military employee should be capable of bearing arms, I know this is discriminating against less able bodied people but its practicle common sense.
there should be no, "quotas" for backgrounds in any governmental body or legal arm (the police situation in Northern Irleand is currently a joke due to lack of catholic recruits) if you apply, tick the boxes required (quals, physicals) you get a shot. End of

This whole thing was triggered by us in the bar about to shout good natured abuse at evra (our version of good natured abuse would be calling him a useless black bastard, but we're honestly not racist, its just something to shout) but having to bite our tongues as there was 2 black (coloured?) men in the bar, yet I wonder, had iy been an NBA (way to go with a stereotype mac) match, the teams being majourity coloured (black?) with some white guy fouling up, would a majourity brown (non white?) crowd have hesitated to shout "get that cracker of the court?"
I honestly don't think so. The oppressed have beceom the empowered now, and can say what they like without retribution, If I say "nigger" I'm a filthy racist, when a black (absense of colour?) man says "cracker" it seems to slide by.
A common saying of ours is "break it down nigga" (said in a falseto high voice) its not a racist joke, its a joke directed at one of our firends who thinks he is coloured (dipped in tar?) but if a black man heard that he would be outraged.

I understand the need ofr limitations, but this political correctness has got ridiculous, I lost track of what I was trying to say but i think it boils dpown to jermey clarkson for worlkd president, kill the mimes and how racism being an issue has slowly (read: rapidly) turned on itself into the anti thesis of the original issue, the majourity are fearful of what they do/say les tth eminorit yget them for it.
I tink
I'd go back and count typos, but I want to do that tomooroow

[Macros]

oh, what triggered the post was seeing arapper on tv, the way I see it a rule of thumb (the best fucking law ever btw) should be, if they can say it about themselves, everyone can say it.
So every time j Zed or whoever says "all my nigga's in the hood" he's justifying the rest of hte world to say that about his "niggas in the hood" doubles standards are everrywhere and its ridiculous, you want the "N words" (niggerguy) to disapear mr west? stop fucking saying it jackass.

[Optimus Prime]

Racism exists, and unfortunately it will exist until all people learn to accept other people's beliefs, etc.

I work with a guy who happens to be black. One of our bosses will only come and talk to him about basketball, nothing else. It's....weird...and my friend is really a football fan LOL.

The "n-word" should be abolished by ALL sides so it loses it's power. If you use the "n-word", sorry you're a racist.

[Macros]

but I'm not a racist
thats my problem, using a word doesnt make you a racist, its thinking certain people are inferior is
thats my gyp here, governement trying to invoke equality actions, its stupid.
ok i'll try take it into terms thats affect me.
obviously I'm from the special Norn Iron
I'm a prodestant, alot of my friends are catholic, I worked in a pretty catholic bar for a good 5 years, in those 5 year I only ever once felt abuse because of my religion, and that was ironically by a girl who liked me's brother. The result was him being chased down of the most catholic street in town. I've never been shy about my religion, I'm proud to be british and my friends know it (beofre continueing the it should be noted the common derogatory term for a catholic to use on a protestant is "black bastard" based on historical context, vaguely) The majourity of our banter is them calling me a black bastard and making "aye you would you filthy prod" jokes and me responding as to them being the downtrodden taigs, demanding my protestant rule.
if i produced that stuff in the wrong place it would result in a major beating, its been close on severral occasions, but I am in no way biggoted. Even the majourity of my Gf's (shortlived as they have been) were catholic. I swing religion here as race isnt so much of an issue in ireland.
but its the same shit, the psni is cripplingly short of recruits because the fucking patton report said that the forces wasn't balanced enough. so theres a recruitment "pool" but recruits ahve to be admitted to the forces on the following basis:
50% catholic
50% protestant/ other
in a country that is 55% (last census i heard of i think) protestant. its fucking ridiculous, now they're short of recruits because catholics won't sign up (the one cath I know that did got serious (i mean serious) abouse from his friends and family) so the prods can't be getting jobs
stupdiu

[Optimus Prime]

There's no excuse for anybody to use racial slurs, whether they refer to themselves or to others. It's just better left unsaid. You say the word, then you're obviously thinking the word, which means there's a pretty good chance that word is constantly floating around in your brain and in your thoughts.

Sometimes people are too sensitive...but Macros, in the US, Racism is alive and unfortunately well On all sides.

[Slum]

Personally, as a white American with a middle-class upbringing, I have no real idea what it's like to be discriminated against. I think everyone is inherently a little racist...it goes all ways. I don't like it when people play the race card, but that doesn't mean their stance is without merit. I don't have the same the life experiences as someone else...so who am I to say what belief is or isn't valid.

I do my best to look at situations with an open mind and let an individual's actions be the gauge with which I determine my opinion of them.

That said, I don't care for minority quotas and such... it all seems so arbitrary. But it's a step in the right direction, I guess.

[Optimus Prime]

I grew up in the South, and was surrounded by stupid, ignorant racist hicks. Yet my first year of college, I had to prove to my roommate that I wasn't a racist (he was black). He told me all white people are racist, which is horseshit of course but hey...I had to fight counter racism as an 18 year old kid.

The problem is people hate what they don't understand.

[Macros]

well I argue against that Xander
If i'm thinking "oh shit" when I drop a block on my toe, but if I stiffle it and shout " oh suger" everyone knows what I was thinking.
I maintain racism is not the words but hte beliefs, I know some really bitter biggoted people and I throw about far more antio catholic jokes tan them, but I get it back an we laugh it off, peoples skins are too thin.
When that commentator whatever his face is got sacked for called dessiae a useless blakc or something like that i was ripping, hes not a racist, never has been, it was just an off the cuff remark.
that whats I was itnking about eaelier!
Its ok for black comedians to make jokes about thier oppresion, but if a white comic brings it up their ostracised, why. double standards, either allow freedom of speech or arrest every unpolitcally correct person everywhere
I understand oppresion occurs, but in developed nations people need to start taking statements with a grain of salt, I'm sure black men arent adverse to the stereotype that they all have mssive cocks, take the good with th ebad.

[Macros]

Slumgullion Spitteler;313510 said:

That said, I don't care for minority quotas and such... it all seems so arbitrary. But it's a step in the right direction, I guess.

how can you say quotaas are a step in the right direction?
theyre a backstep, thats anothe major part of my problem, quotas highlight races, give certain areas preference, this is discrimination,

[Optimus Prime]

My dad told me something that's always stuck with me.

He told me that you can't expect a group of people/culture who were enslaved, downtrodden and not even granted full citizenship until the mid 60's (Africn Americans) to catch up in a generation.

I've always thought that make sense. I'm not saying give minorities everything, but lending a helping hand is the right idea.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I just ate and don't have the energy to fully weigh in on this right now. Plus, I prefer to let the discussion go for a while, then step in and brilliantly counter every point different from mine, effectively killing the thread, preferably in a spirited debate with Obdigore.

So, I'll wait until then, saying only that it is ok to say black instead of African American again, and you can't expect black people to not still have hard feelings about the whole oppression thing, when in living memory they were still having police dogs set on them. Racism on both sides is still around, it's harder to notice when you are not on the downtrodden side.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Personally, I feel that placing certain words in the realm of the taboo gives them power, and that's something to be avoided. The problem, in some cases, is that the word already has enough power that legitimizing its use in order to disarm it isn't really a feasible solution. It is for this reason that I am against further stigmatization of curses and so on.

It's interesting the way that language works, however. In the case of the "n-word," as you call it, it is derived from a word that simply means "black". Inded, in French, "nègre" doesn't quite have the same connotation. It lacks some of the history of the American use (as a word; colonially-speaking, Europe doesn't do so well either), and so it's more acceptable. That's not to say it's particularly polite, but you won't be crucified for using it.

As far as the term "African-American" goes, I hate it. It's a huge misnomer--these peoples' links to Africa are minimal at this point in history, and anyway, you could be white and be African-American. I hope some white guy somewhere took advantage of that, because it's ridiculous.

I am also strictly against affirmative action, whether it be motivated by gender, ethnicity, etc. I am, instead, a very strong proponent of merit-based awards, since it's really the only fair way to do things. The problem, obviously, is that some people have very bad luck and grow in bad neighbourhoods and go to bad schools. Doesn't make them better candidates than anyone else, however--let's fix the problem itself, not the consequences.

As an upper-middle-class white male, I feel that I have to work a lot harder than I should to have my merits recognised. Not only that, but the colour of my skin, the spongy tissue between my legs, and my parents' jobs mean that I am automatically branded as a certain kind of person whose words must be taken in a certain sense. In our hurry to fix appearances, we've deluded ourselves into thinking that we've yanked out the root of the problem(s). Social taboos/fatwas on words and affirmative action ultimately seem only to perpetuate the problem, often playing musical chairs with the group(s) in question. The real difficulty here is that although our means of addressing the problem really suck, they're also the best that I can come up with (minus affirmative action, that is--that one really bugs me, and I think it needs to get revamped).

[Optimus Prime]

I think calling yourself a "African, Italian, whatever American" is silly but if somebody wants to do it, I really don't care.

People need to realize that crime and poverty aren't racially inherent traits. You stick any color/creed/culture/religion group of people in an area of poor income and limited resources and you get crime, you get dysfunction, etc etc.

[Shinrei]

If anyone thinks that language is as easy as calling a spade a spade and a heart a heart, they are seriously deluded.

Words carry baggage, just like people emotionally carry baggage. This isn't right or wrong, its just the truth. When a white person says the n word, it has the baggage of slavery, jim crow laws and racist hate. When a black person says it, it is claiming the word for the community and therefore takes away some of its power. Like Goas says, making a word taboo only increases its power.

Another example, which I used once before, is if I call my mother by her first name, that doesn't automatically make it ok for my friend to do the same unless invited to do so. Politeness is one of those things built into language where a spade is not necessary a spade. My mother would think my friend was incredibly rude to just start off by calling her by her first name.

As for affirmative action, I am firmly against it. If anything needs to be done, it's at the educational level -making schools a level playing field so everyone has a chance to make it on merit. AA is just a poorly conceived bandaid on a larger problem.

African American? After living in Japan I think that's silly. If I saw a black person there, I couldn't assume they were American right? The blacks in the English as a Second Language here at the university are not Americans, but actually from Africa so I can't call them African Americans. The label is only worthwhile if you want to refer to the group of blacks found in america, but it makes no sense to use it to label specific people you don't know or blacks in general.

Not to be snotty Xander, but what your dad told you is nice and all, but Japan did pretty well picking itself up after being devastated and nuked in WWII. Also, a good number of the Mexicans and other Latin Americans from poor downtrodden backgrounds coming to the states these days seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

I was listening to Jesse Jackson's radio program a few Sundays ago. He and a caller were acknowledging that part of the problem is many young blacks today see doing well in school and trying to be successful in terms of modern America as "being white" and they will avoid that at all costs. Black kids who do well in school are talked down by their peers as "being white." Getting ahead is only socially acceptable to some if its in sports or music. If this is really a widespread thing, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.....

[Silencer]

I find this thread interesting. To put it one way, racism is considered by many to be discrimination. Take this to extremes, then: having an ethnicity is in itself discrimination based on race - remove racial labels and the problem goes away. That's never going to happen however.
Of course, another side is this: racism will continue to be an issue until people stop shouting "racism!" at every turn. If you allow racism to be an argument against someone's opinion, then it will always be there, because someone, somewhere, will use that as a way to counter someones' argument/fight against them.
The other thing I find funny about this whole issue (not that the issue itself is funny....), is Xander's post about his black room-mate - HE was being racist: he claimed that ALL WHITES are racist. It's a contradiction. And a major part of the problem itself.

To me, racism is null and void - it shouldn't be a legal thing, it shouldn't exist as a thing at all! If it continues to be possible for someone to claim ANYTHING based on race - be it some past crime against themselves/family, land (we have that problem here in New Zealand), money, as a reason for their failings (i.e. someone saying that they failed school because of racism), then racism will survive. If you cut that out, it will go away.

To a point, I agree with Macros - double-standards. "White" people now have to watch what they say all the time. Hell, in most places this thread would be shot to pieces by people crying "racist!". So I think that everyone just needs to let go of the whole notion of racism.

Just my two cents.

[Shinrei]

I don't know if it is classified or not, but I've heard of white people who feel socially anxious around black people because they're afraid that blacks will automatically assume they are racist! So, they are either socially akward, don't say anything or avoid black people at all costs - not because they're racist, but because they are afraid of being accused as such!

Oh, and macros, your mentiong your pakistani friend made me laugh because its a common joke in the states about having a "token black friend." So whenever the topic of racism comes up, you can say, "well, I have a black friend so I'm cool."

And on that note, for the record, my two best friends from childhood are a Jew and a first-generation-in-the-US Iranian.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Regarding affirmative action: If it leads to an underqualified person getting a job instead of a better candidate, that's a bad thing. If there are two equal candidates though, and one is black, I see nothing wrong with that being a deciding factor. You can say that's unfair, but something needs to be done to offset the unfairness of blacks often not getting jobs because they are black. Yes, this still happens.

It naive to think racism no longer exists. It's still there, maybe not as bad as it used to be, but it's still there.

I think we have at least a couple of black forum members, I'd like to hear from them on this subject. As a bunch of white boys, the rest of us aren't really qualified to speak of how much racism does or doesn't exist against blacks.

[Macros]

well now my head is semi clear I will try and hash out what I was trying to say all along, well what i think I was trying to say.
I dont think me making the odd black joke makes me a racist, I have no problem with people of any colour or nation (except the french obviously) any time I say I do its a joke, and generally pretty obviously a joke. (like why do young jews get upset about the holocaust, its in the past, if some 20 year old english jewish guy gets upst about something that happened in poland 80 years ago (likely before his granda was born) hes an idiot.)
Does making a joke about a black man being well endowed make me racist? I doubt it,
but if I make a joke about arresting black babies to prevent crime I am. whats with the double standard? either attributing a stereotype is racist or not.
Oh and before someone says I can't label all black people criminals, I can, freedom of speech, but I don't think they are, its just a joke. On that note however, I remember last year a high up black police officer (I think in manc) said political correctness was hurting the force, a high percentage of violent crime at the time was between black youth gangs, but they couldnt go out and push this idea because it was "racist"
No its not racist, its was a fact. Had he said young male caucasion (sp) gangs it would have been fine.
Bah
duble standards
etc


A few responses, Slug, if race is any kind of a factor in deciding a job/ placement/ reward/ whatever its desrcimination.
Quotas and affirmative action are simply schemes that involve the government ramming their beliefs down everyone elses throats. I'll use my psni example again, I can see why in this country they renamed the police force, catholics werent likely to join the "royal ulster" constabulary, but they're still not joining because of fear and peer pressure. This has led to a lot of protestant applicants simply not getting a shot at a job at all, because they have no catholics to balance them out. This is discrimination, automatically saying you can't join because you're a protestant, you won't be unbaised you need a catholic counterpart (in a sense, you don't join in pairs but you get the picture)
Jobs should go on merit, in the incredably unlikely event of two candidates being both perfectly qualified, both interviewing well and whatever then pick whoever you think is better looking, or has nicer teeth. Bringing race into these issues makes race an issue.
Whilst the arguement that the black community in america was downtrodden and osrtacized as late as the 60's doesnt hold water with me. (apart from the angry old timers, they get props from my homies)
Lets look at the majourity of black artists, crying white oppression, they're all in their 20's, they're all fairly wealthy, and probably have large white fanbases.
Its liekt he "mobo" awards (music of black origin) wtf? how is this not a racist award show? plenty of r'n'b artists win awards in regular award shows, why the need for distinction? if I started a music of white origin awards I'd be branded a racist so fast I wouldnt finish my announce with the hot iron being wedged against my butt cheeks.
And sexual equality, don't get me started on that shit, what about that banker lady in NY last year (possibly 2) who sued for millions because her superiour essentially said she was ugly, let me tell she was rough as a bagders ballbag on sandpaper. its a mans world, live with it. You want equal wages? make yourself worth the wages, don't arse about chattering (my office is horrendous for this) and straightening each others fucking hair.

I think I was incoherently rambling about the pointlesness of "equality" schemes, people are not equal, torres is a great footballer, I'm shit, thats life, I bet he can't hold as much drink as me. If you're qualified for the post, you get it, companies/Government bodies shouldn't have their hands forced on who they hire.
Its stupid.



Fin

[The Tyrant Lizard]

We're living in a day and age when dicrimination against white people is known as 'reverse racism'. What kind of nonsense is that? that suggests that white folk invented being racist.

Many a time I've seen a clip on the news or read in the paper about a group of whites attacking an asian or a black guy and it being instantly labelled a racist assault, with nothing ever being mentioned about the fact they might have just not liked the guy because of something he'd done. But when a group of asians or blacks attack a white guy, 'the police are keeping an open mind' because they're afraid to say that racism against whites exists for fear of being labelled racists themselves.

In that respect I dont feel that there is equallity in certain places. I'd like to see a tally of all the people who've been charged with racism and see how many of them are non-white - and I challenge anyone to suggest that white people are more racist than anyone else. I believe racism is evident in ALL sociaties, and in equal amount.

[Macros]

once again somebody says what is lurking in my brain but doesnt get past my fingers.
I'm sure chinese people joke about us "round eyes" (dodgeball anyone?) just as we joke about the slanties and demand a number 54 with fried rice (no egg bits in it damnit!)
The term "cracker" is thrown about and isnt seen as overly racist, in my mind its as racist as the n word (niggerguy) its said with the intent of being a derogatory term