[Cain]

Maybe this belongs in Midnight Tides I don't know, but my college buddy whom I turned onto this series during our time in Iraq have spent many a night debating the powers of the different humans, ascendants and gods within this series. Who is the strongest? Etc.

Now we have debated and debated on this Iron Bars issue. After seeing him wipe the floor clean with the edur and those thugs in MT does it seem to reason that they possessed powers beyond what the Vow gave them? Like Iron Bars being able to rip that fools jaw off single handedly? Increased Speed, Strength etc. But it seemed to me like maybe Iron Bars was close to ascendancy before he ever even became Avowed because I doubt even Cowl or any of the other CriGs could even come close to taking on those Tarenthal gods all by themselves even in a weakened state such as they were. So it stands to reason he had prior power to the Vow. Maybe this will be elaborated on in RoTC i dont know, any ideas? I know it was PARTIALLY discussed in the Avowed thread but I didn't see that great of effort at it!

[lobo the wolfman]

Cain your best bet is to check out the first chapter of ROTCG on this forum for a bit mnore info on the avowed, but the truth is untill that book comes out, no one really knows what the avowed can do, and how much off their power cames from the vow.

I for one belive that Iron Bars was nothing but a good solider, then become something else from the avowing. Hope this helps.

[Dancer+]

The tarthenal gods were reasonably weak. Iron Bars stunt against them was good, but he had aid from Corlo. Ruin dispatched them effortlessly. Iron Bars is good but not alarmingly so, he's one of the top in the guard. And one of the top out of the human population but he's no where close to the ascendants/gods.

[Cain]

Well I seem to remember, (could be wrong) Didnt he like crush the windpipe of one of the edur with just like, the wind through the passage of his fist or something like that?? And seriously, we havent seen ANYONE rip some persons jaw off with his fingers : P

[Deuce]

Well I wouldn't say no one else would have been capable of holding off the Tarenthal gods. As others stated he received aid from Corlo but it is said a few times on the prowess of not only Cowl but Skinner. Even the Crippled God stated to Rhulad after Iron Bars walked through him 'Be thankful it wasn't Skinner' or something of that nature.

[Sindriss]

skinner even survived a fight against the first sword so he must be hardcore.

[Aptorian]

Like mentioned above Iron Bars is "just" an avowed. The vow worked sort of like the T'lan Imass ritual. It made the Avowed stronger, faster, more resistent to damage and gave them increased longevity and probably immunity to deseases.

There's no reason to think Iron Bars is an ascendant or anything like that. The things we see Iron Bars do can either be chalked down to vow power up or simply that Erikson writes his fights a bit "cartoony". Look at Kalams fights, he's not ascended but he litterally brakes peoples face when he punches them and he throws people around like their ragdolls.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Deuce;311973 said:

Even the Crippled God stated to Rhulad after Iron Bars walked through him 'Be thankful it wasn't Skinner' or something of that nature.

I think that the CG meant that Skinner or Cowl would have paid more attention to Rhulad, realized he wasn't...well "normal" and thought before acting. Iron Bars hhadn't time or didn't care.

Btw we all know that Skinner survived a clash wih Dassem and Iron Bars is considered Skinner level o he's no weakling!:folken:

[D'rek]

Note:

Humbrall Taur's son crushed Trotts' throat with his non-dominant hand while no doubt in an excruciating amount of pain from having the other arm cut off. This is just to show that 'regular' folks do some powerful stuff all the time, Iron Bars doesn't have to be special to break a dude's throat or even to rip out a jaw. The flow-of-air thing probably just infers he did it faster then a groggy, hung-over Seren could manage to see.

Corlo talks about how he has a wide variety of spells stored in his jewel-thingy. I'm sure that includes a fair number of supportive ones to help Iron Bars move faster, have better reflexes, clamp down on pain, and all the other things he does in the Seregahl fight.

Iron Bars didn't do a lot of damage in the Seregahl fight for the first while. Aside from his initial strike, he was mostly just avoiding their attacks and dealing out minor damage, at least until Ublala showed up.

[Coco with marshmallows]

but in all fairness, crushing a throat, by means of a punch/chop, is relatively easy. It can and often does happen in real life.

On the other hand, ripping someones jaw off is definitely out there in the realms of fantastical levels of power.

[D'rek]

No it's not... the joints in your mouth that hinge the jaw are not especially sturdy. The hardest part is getting a good grip, but provided you can get that, I don't think it would be that hard for a muscular person to rip out a jaw. Said strong person would presumably have an easier time then others getting their fingers through the underside of the mouth enough to get that grip.

The whole motion is a bit caroony and not-so pragmatic because it's probably easier for the victim to move forward as you pull then it is for you to dislocate the jaw-joints, so you're more likely to end up pulling the person towards you unless something holds them and their head back. Additionally, it requires high proximity so you'd think the victim would be able to defensively react to it fairly easily.

[O'lee]

The joints in the jaw might not be so sturdy, but I bet the tendons are pretty hard to rip apart. Even though, a really strong person with a good grip might get somewhere.

[Aptorian]

I will agree with O'lee. Ripping off a jaw would take more than Bruce Lee technique and arnold schwarzenegger strength.

I remember the scene describing some kind of finger movement and a couple of pops before the mandible comes off. Even if you got your fingers up and under the cheek bones and the other hand on the chest... it sounds incredibly improbable.

[Battalion]

It didn't seem that difficult when I did it...

[Nequam]

A said:

No it's not... the joints in your mouth that hinge the jaw are not especially sturdy. The hardest part is getting a good grip, but provided you can get that, I don't think it would be that hard for a muscular person to rip out a jaw. Said strong person would presumably have an easier time then others getting their fingers through the underside of the mouth enough to get that grip.

The whole motion is a bit caroony and not-so pragmatic because it's probably easier for the victim to move forward as you pull then it is for you to dislocate the jaw-joints, so you're more likely to end up pulling the person towards you unless something holds them and their head back. Additionally, it requires high proximity so you'd think the victim would be able to defensively react to it fairly easily.

I also agree with O'lee and Apt.
I don't think it would be as easy as you think. Think of all that muslce, tendon, skin and stuff attached to your skull. Just look at your own, grap it, see how hard it would to get an actual strong grip to tear something that attached off. Also with the other person fighting back. I don't see how that could be done without incerdible fantasy-skill. Or really, really, really big muscles. Like mine.

[Cain]

Well its not that he ripped off the jaw in and of itself that was amazing. Its that he was still fighting others as well, he was in the middle of some intense combat and he did it all non-chalantly, and swiftly. Those edur bodyguards and Rhulad himself would be no pushover.

[Sindriss]

woah, that is some serious minus reputation you got there Cain.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Sindriss;318513 said:

woah, that is some serious minus reputation you got there Cain.

From being a belligerent redneck, from what I 'ear.

But I am willing to hear Cain' side of the story.

[The Archivist]

Got curious ... so I asked around at the dojos ... checked with 3 different master level instructors (7th dan or higher) .... not one of them is convinced that the jaw ripping stunt is likely. They did stress, however, with a weapon it is quite possible. So, if one considers Iron Bars increased strength to be able to make his hand the equivalent of a mace (a very big force multiplier ... maces are some very good class 3 levers) then it would be on the outside of possible but only in the strike/grip/break/disjoint/rip kind of sequence. Everyone seemed agreed that the jaw bone would have to have been broken and helped sever some tendons to make this work. Note: they also thought that very unlikely.

*The Archivist, tightens his belt knot and the swish of his Gi can be heard as he slips with fluid grace, belying his age, into the stacks*

[HoosierDaddy]

This isn't really about the efficacy of Iron Bars, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

Hypothetical: If the Azath had still been working (and thus negating a whole lot of the stuff there in the end and the whole future Ruin, Udinaas, what's her name threads), would it have attempted to take Iron Bars. Or stated more quickly and bringing this full circle, would Iron Bar's efficacy had caused the Azath House to take him?