[Optimus Prime]

paladin;311975 said:

he has every right not to care. i dont hold it against anyone that says fuck humanity just like i dont hold it against anyone that tries to make everyone else conform using fear as a weapon.

we're already getting fucked by the baby boomers, why the hell do we have to fix everything anyways? enjoy life. it's short and unpredictable. if your enjoyment comes from saving the whales, then that's great. if it comes from getting plastered every day because you don't give a shit, that's great too.

I care about the planet. If you don't care about the future of at least the animals and the planet itself...then that's selfish. Oh and Paladin, you're free to care about what you want...but when it could help save lives and the future generations...then that's harmful and stupid.

[Sparkimus]

Wait, wait. I've been drinking heavily but this is getting out of control. Environmentalist is one thing, caring about about your future self is another. By the time the world is too fucked up to live in we'll be long gone... Mars will be the new Earth, and it will be no concern of ours. Hug a tree if you want to, but don't give us shit if we dont join you.

Did I say all that right?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Don't pee in the pool, don't crap in your own bed. That's all I'm saying. My personal environmental stance.

[paladin]

Xander;312014 said:

I care about the planet. If you don't care about the future of at least the animals and the planet itself...then that's selfish. Oh and Paladin, you're free to care about what you want...but when it could help save lives and the future generations...then that's harmful and stupid.

harmful and stupid to who? someone else? i dont owe anything to humanity. this is the problem with modern culture. people think we owe it to humanity to take care of everyones problems. its idealistic nonsense. i take care of myself and the people i care about. if an opportunity to help others/help the environment/help my government/whatever shows up and its something i dont mind doing, i'll do it, but not because i owe something to you. its because i elect to.

[Optimus Prime]

paladin;312416 said:

harmful and stupid to who? someone else? i dont owe anything to humanity. this is the problem with modern culture. people think we owe it to humanity to take care of everyones problems. its idealistic nonsense. i take care of myself and the people i care about. if an opportunity to help others/help the environment/help my government/whatever shows up and its something i dont mind doing, i'll do it, but not because i owe something to you. its because i elect to.

Dangerous. I don't think we should involve ourselves in every cause, but the highest calling a person can have is to help others and the planet. I'm not really going to pick a fight with you, because it's obvious you feel strongly about this....but man I hope people of that view don't ever get and hold power. We're doomed.

[Cold Iron]

Too late xander.

And sparkimus, there is every chance that humans will be wiped out by our own hand. With 50% of organisms on earth set to be extinct in the next 200 years we are looking down the barrel of major ecosystem collapse and an extended period of inhabitable conditions that we will in all likelyhood not be able to survive in.

[Sparkimus]

It wouldn't surprise me, but looking at the way our society (at least in the US) is rotting away I just can't find it in myself to care. I see people in my generation and in generations below me and most of it makes me sick.

I work in a mall so I deal with a large variety of people on a daily basis. Try spending years watching kids cursing, stealing, dressing and acting like whores, smoking, drinking and doing just about everything that they shouldn't do...that's the future...and it's looking bleak. The other day I had a couple of young girls asking me if I knew how to speak "ghetto" because they think it's cool to act uneducated...honestly it made me sad.

I'm fearful to bring in another life to this world, if only so I don't have to see them follow along such a self distructive path as every kid seems want to do. I try not to litter, I recycle, I plant plants, but that's about the extent of it. I do what is necessary to keep me and my family happy, but I'm about the youngest in it, and I'm not too inclined to add to that, so I'm not all too concerned what happens after I'm gone.

Selfish? Perhaps. But I'm not sorry for it.

My post above may have been a little harsh, but like I said I was a bit worse for wear

[paladin]

Xander;312432 said:

Dangerous. I don't think we should involve ourselves in every cause, but the highest calling a person can have is to help others and the planet. I'm not really going to pick a fight with you, because it's obvious you feel strongly about this....but man I hope people of that view don't ever get and hold power. We're doomed.

humanity isnt a collective. we are individuals. everyone has their own goals and rules they live by. in america, these are libertarian views. belief in personal freedoms guaranteed by the constitution without interference from others(be it government or otherwise). and sure, there are great people like MLK and Mother Theresa that helped others over themselves, but that's not the life for me. every individual is different and noone has any right to make me do something i have no desire to do(as long as its legal), whether its donating to greenpeace, doing community service at my church, or not shopping at walmart because they undercut local business.

personal liberty is what the US is built on and it is no persons place to try and take that away by mandating someone to give any portion of that up in service of someone else and its part of the social contract you buy into as a US citizen.

[Optimus Prime]

That's what is wrong with our culture. We are all too self absorbed. If you spent a small, almost insignificant portion of your time helping others....we'd all be a lot better off.

Don't help and don't care about the planet. By all means, lets keep rushing down the track to oblivion. Fuck it. Right?

[Sparkimus]

Not so much Xander, preserving the planet is one thing, and I do my part on that. It's preserving humanity that I don't much care about. We need a drastic change in the way we think, act and treat one another, because the way things are going these days, oblivion would be a blessing over what the world will probably be like in 200 years.

[paladin]

its not self absorbed, its our right. if you dont like it, propose an amendment(or do nothing, either way it's your right). the only civic duty required by us is to pay our taxes and if a draft is authorized, to answer the call. beyond that it is personal choice, and that is how it should be.

[Cold Iron]

paladin;312579 said:

every individual is different and noone has any right to make me do something i have no desire to do(as long as its legal)

This is fine. It should be illegal to pollute the world that we all share. I don't want to breathe your shit just because you want to own a hummer. You can't smoke in my face any more and you shouldn't be able to fuel your shit in my face either.

As for Sparkimus: “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

[Sparkimus]

I'm still in favor of the 'garbage ball rocket' idea from Futurama...Shoot that shit into space and send it into the sun.

[Cold Iron]

In the context of my quote I think you're saying you're suicidal

[Sparkimus]

Me? No way, I have waaaaay too much fun to be suicidal.

[Optimus Prime]

Cold Iron;312608 said:

This is fine. It should be illegal to pollute the world that we all share. I don't want to breathe your shit just because you want to own a hummer. You can't smoke in my face any more and you shouldn't be able to fuel your shit in my face either.

As for Sparkimus: “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

Speak the truth. Amen, CI.

We need to make some sacrifices, or else we're all dead. Pretty simple.

[Cold Iron]

And the civil rights argument doesn't stand up, because human rights > civil rights.

[paladin]

Cold Iron;312608 said:

This is fine. It should be illegal to pollute the world that we all share. I don't want to breathe your shit just because you want to own a hummer. You can't smoke in my face any more and you shouldn't be able to fuel your shit in my face either.

As for Sparkimus: “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

i dont have "shit". i own a small sedan and i work at home. i drive less than 30 miles a week. i sold my camaro and my chevelle. just because i support personal rights(in this matter or any other) doesnt mean i own a hummer

[Sparkimus]

Well then you start getting into population control and governing/restricting actions Xander...that in turn leads to civil disobedience due to a tyrranical invasion of rights and privelages which leads to nothing good for anyone.

[Cold Iron]

paladin;312634 said:

i dont have "shit". i own a small sedan and i work at home. i drive less than 30 miles a week. i sold my camaro and my chevelle. just because i support personal rights(in this matter or any other) doesnt mean i own a hummer

but you're supporting those who do = same thing