[Sinisdar Toste]

Throughout RG the Errant is constantly referred to as elder. now that im re-reading i can't believe how obvious it is.

RG p. 331 Menandore to Errant in Udinaas' dream.
"The curse of Elder Gods - look at the blood on your hands. it is all of your own making. all of it."

RG p. 301-2 Kuru Qan and the Errant, after the Errant is affected by the snared demons ambition.

Err. "I am the Master of the Tiles, Elder (cptl E). [snip] The Elders are awakened, awakened to themselves - the memory of what the once were, what they could be again." [snip]

KQ. "This is not our war Errant."
Err. "Oh but it is. my war. rhulads war. the crippled gods war. after all it is not the Elder Gods who so hunger to destroy the fallen one."
KQ. "They would if the but understood, Errant. but they are blinded by the lure of resurrection - as blinded as you, here, now." (the errant and the ceda are, by way of inference, including the Errant among the elders.) [snip]

*as he prepares to stab feather witch
"Blood. the mortals gift to the Elder-"

ganath tells ganoes how his power came from blood, and there are plenty of other hints in the errants internal dialogues. anyways hope this settles it.

[Aptorian]

Uhm, what is your point?

Yes, the Errant is an "Elder God" in the sense that he was worshipped in the elder times, but there's been made no connection to "Mother Darks Elder Gods".

EDIT: Here's a link to a thread I made where this whole Elder business is discussed, including the Errant.

http://malazanworld....read.php?t=8225

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Errant is not Elder God like K'rul or Draconus. We know that.

We know that the Errant was a mortal who became the Master of the Deck, and used that position to build a base of worship and become a god. This means that he is not an Elder God.

[Sinisdar Toste]

See this is where i have to disagree. and i can use your own post against you.

pg. 447 RG the Errants thoughts
"More than any ghost the Elder God was forgettable." he refers to himself in the same way you refer to him to prove that he is not elder in the way of k'rul and draconus. and when k'rul, mael, draconus are referred to as elder gods its always in the same way that the errant is, Elder God. so he was worshipped in the time of the first empire and has a human form. what proof is there really that he was an ascended mortal? almost all elder gods take a human form, and the errant never thinks of a time before he was the errant, does he? from what i can see all the proof goes the other way.
the only thing we do have is baruks draconic family tree leaving him out. and to be honest the tree, it is not 100% accurate. no sechul latch, no grizzin farl, who i think we can agree are elders. i just think that your whole theory is nothing but assumptions. in RG especially it becomes clear that the errant is an Elder God. try going back and reading the passages i quoted.

[Aptorian]

Yes, but your own quote and argument doesn't make any sense.

The Errant is an Elder God, but is he "an elder god of mother dark"? If you read my Elemental vs. elder thread, there's so much confusion.

You have to trust Ganath, she remembers the Errant as someone who ascended to become the Elder God. Why is this not enough for you?

But I'll give you one thing... The Errant, once a mortal and the Master of the Tiles, could have accomplished what ST wishes. He might have taken the power of an elemental in the elemental. Fire and Dolmen are said to have being brought into existance by the Errant power in MT. Perhaps there is an Errant force that shapes thing. The Element of destiny. And perhaps the Errant took upon him this role. But the Errant isn't as old as Mael or K'rull.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i'll grant you that i forgot about ganath and ganoes' little discussion. but it wouldn't be the first time someone was mistaken in this series. why do i have to trust ganath?
i would rather trust the errants own memories and interior dialogue, where over and over again he refers to himself, as do others such as menandore and KQ, as an Elder God. nothing more nothing less. he even seems to consider himself a contemporary of mael, if not his equal. we have no idea of all the forces that were stalkin around in the void before the coming of light. the errant could very well be one of those, the element of chance, of surprise if you will. the x factor that created life, as in the letherii realm forgers belief.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;287876 said:

Yes, but your own quote and argument doesn't make any sense.

The Errant is an Elder God, but is he "an elder god of mother dark"? If you read my Elemental vs. elder thread, there's so much confusion.

You have to trust Ganath, she remembers the Errant as someone who ascended to become the Elder God. Why is this not enough for you?

But I'll give you one thing... The Errant, once a mortal and the Master of the Tiles, could have accomplished what ST wishes. He might have taken the power of an elemental in the elemental. Fire and Dolmen are said to have being brought into existance by the Errant power in MT. Perhaps there is an Errant force that shapes thing. The Element of destiny. And perhaps the Errant took upon him this role. But the Errant isn't as old as Mael or K'rull.

The part I don't get is when Ganath says he was worshiped by the enclaves of Trell, Barghast and T'lan Imass. Why? Doesn't seem befitting of those races...

[Aptorian]

The Errant is the god of chance or fate or something. Any race could have need of the power of such a god.

Also I think you ment Imass not T'lan Imass... the TA would more likely kill the Errant than ask for his power.

[Dancer+]

Dolorous Menhir;287437 said:

The Errant is not Elder God like K'rul or Draconus. We know that.

We know that the Errant was a mortal who became the Master of the Deck, and used that position to build a base of worship and become a god. This means that he is not an Elder God.

I have two points to make, firstly a small correction: Master of the Tiles. I realise this is just an error on your part rather than a lack of knowledge but I want to prevent confusion with others. The Errant became Master of the Tiles which is the Holds version of Master of the Deck.

Secondly, I agree with both DM and Apt. The Errant is not an Elder God in the sense of Draconus and K'rul, he was a mortal who ascended to his role and thus he is not one of Mother Dark's elder gods, similarly to Hood. Both mortals/immortals who ascended/rose to their positions. The Errant is an elder god of sorts, he's older than the younger gods. The Elder Gods we know of disappeared from the world so there would have been a natural progression of things - the younger gods would eventually become elder gods etc.

[Silencer]

Also, it is important to note that for there to be a Master of the Tiles there must have been tiles and therefore other realms/gods. The Elder God's that we know of are mostly Elemental Forces (although we don't know which is which).

On the flipside, it is possible to say that he was a god of something else before (like K'rul probably was), however this is unlikely as K'rul created the warrens, the Errant probably didn't create the Tiles/Holds.

I agree with Apt/DM/Dancer - he is an Old God, but not Elder. He is not elemental.

[Folken]

It's like calling Osric and Elder God. Yes sure he would fall into the category because he was worshiped along with that bunch but he isn't an Elemental thus not like K'Rul et al. The Errant falls in this category, worshiped along with the bunch but not Elemental:)

Just adding more weight to the argument that is all

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thanks for pointing that out Dancer, I totally forgot the distinction between Tiles and Deck.

[Aptorian]

My sarcasm detector has problems determining the sincerity of that last statement...

[D'rek]

Ooooh a sarcasm detector, that's a reaaallly good invention...

[Mentalist]

to sum it up: he's older than the Deck gods, but not as old as the Elder Gods...

[Aptorian]

kud13;288543 said:

to sum it up: he's older than the Deck gods, but not as old as the Elder Gods...

Which again aren't as old as the old elder gods, Togg and Fancy, but older than Hood but probably not the CG...

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Mentalist]

Hood is a jaghut--he's at best a Deck god.
CG's alien. He's a category of his own
As for the rest, we have
Eldest--animals + Spirits
Elder-supposedly first kids of MD--K'rul, Draconus, SoCN, etc
Errant
Deck Gods

[Sinisdar Toste]

ok ok ok, try this on for size though. elemental forces are elder gods, but elder gods are not necessarily elemental forces. hood and the errant arent in the same category to my mind, hood has never had the word Elder attached to him, at least not that i can recall, quote fu me if you must. the errant does.

[Silencer]

Although Hood was quite probably the holder of the Ice Throne before he became Hood. So that would probably make him as old as the Errant.

[Aptorian]

kud13;288563 said:

Hood is a jaghut--he's at best a Deck god.
CG's alien. He's a category of his own
As for the rest, we have
Eldest--animals + Spirits
Elder-supposedly first kids of MD--K'rul, Draconus, SoCN, etc
Errant
Deck Gods

Hood was known as the death wanderer before he became the god of death. He also sat on the throne of Ice. He may (or may not?) have given up these things for his position in the house of death but he's certainly not "at best a deck god".

Otherwise I totally agree with your list.

Sinisdar Toste;288627 said:

ok ok ok, try this on for size though. elemental forces are elder gods, but elder gods are not necessarily elemental forces. hood and the errant arent in the same category to my mind, hood has never had the word Elder attached to him, at least not that i can recall, quote fu me if you must. the errant does.

See, who says elemental forces are elder gods? The only supposed elemental we know is Edgewalker and we're not sure what the hell he is. He's certainly not mention anywhere before BH and NoK.

I must admit I can't think of Hood being called Elder either, but is that necessary? He's a Jaghut. He sat the Icethrone. He probably guarded or collected for the Jaghut Bridge. Of course he's Elder and most likely hundreds of thousands of years older than the Errant.

Silencer;288720 said:

Although Hood was quite probably the holder of the Ice Throne before he became Hood. So that would probably make him as old as the Errant.

Older!

Anyway. I see a problem with the lists people are making in this thread. Allthough the EGs seem scary, are they more dangerous than the gods of the deck? The EGs feed on blood and worship, they don't have that any longer. It's the new gods era and if the pantheon war becomes a trenchwar between the elder and the young it's going to be bloody.