[D'rek]

Books, movies, games, etc these days all come in lots of different formats, possibly more formats than ever before. In books, for example, not only is there hardcover and paperback versions, but there's e-books that you can read on a special portable reader and some are even available in universal digital formats (ie: some Peter Watt's books are distributed freely by the author as PDFs, which can be read on many, many devices). Instead of just coming in cartridges, video games can now be bought on discs or entirely as digital copies, and can be played on consoles, computers, tablets, smartphones, smart-refrigerators, etc.

Of course, there's advantages and disadvantages of each format. So then people have to choose which format to buy in, and it's not uncommon for later on someone to wish they had it a different format. Currently, the only legal way of getting the thing in another format is to buy it again in this other format.

What do you think of the ethics of that situation? Should companies offer a cheaper alternative than completely re-buying the product in a different format?

Do you think the current system is going to change in the future or stay as it is? Do you think there are any changes to this that would help to combat piracy problems?

---

I think in a more-perfect world, there should be a seperation of content and format. So, for example, you could buy a book in hardback for $25, in massmarket paperback for $10, or a digital version for $10. Some percentage or portion of the cost represents the actual content of the book, so once you have bought it in any format you don't need to pay the content amount again, and can get it in the other format(s) at just the cost of producing it in that format. So if you buy a book for $25 in hardback, and later want an e-book version when you go on vacation you would only have to pay the $3 that represents the publishing/production cost of making the e-book version, but not the full price of getting the same words all over again as if you didn't already have a copy of them.

Is this system possible? Maybe. It would involve a lot of licensing aspects to take care of the intangibleness of having purchased a copy of "content" that exists beyond the mere physical copy and all the legal aspects of that. Furthermore, I don't know how it could work with re-selling, re-gifting or borrowing. If I give my paperback copy of Casket of Souls to my little sister but keep my e-book copy, do we both now have a license to the 'content' without her buying it? Obviously not, but there's nothing to stop her from reading it without a "license" and then giving it someone else. So some parts of that are not going to blend, unless they put little microchips inside the cover of books that explode when you read them without a license.

For things like video games it's a bit easier - lots of companies and programs are already starting to do the whole "cloud" thing, but most games you would still have to buy seperate copies of to play on your smartphone and your computer (ie: minecraft). As long as the game has a digital distribution system, it should be easy to have a system where you don't buy full price to get the same game on two platforms.

[Imperial Historian]

Personally I find format issues very annoying, when I've paid for content (especially in a high value format like blu-ray or hardcover) I really begrudge having to pay full price for the product again in a different lower value format (like an online stream or ebook) because I want to use it somewhere other than home. The UK has started to sell somethings in triple play (and i guess this is probably elsewhere as well), where you buy a blu-ray, and included is the dvd version, and an online version, I'm very much in favour of this, and can't wait until they add this option for books.

Currently I buy most of my books in hardback as new releases, as I like having a collection on a bookshelf (and I believe this is the most lucrative format for most authors so like supporting authors I like as much as possible). This makes it very inconvenient when travelling, where i mostly use my ebook reader. I have taken to downloading copies illegally of books I own in order to use them whilst travelling (as far as i know it is still legal to copy a book you own for personal use, so I justify the illegal copies in that I could have physically copied it if I had the time, though I would much prefer having an ebook copy included in the book price, even if i had to pay a little more). I've also switched my buying of disposable paperbacks, and books i'm not sure about to ebook only versions, if i enjoy these new authors I often buy physical copies in order to lend to friends (the inability to lend ebooks is another one of my annoyances with the format as it stands)

I will say an exception to this rule of publishers getting ebooks wrong is baen, who sometimes include cds with electronic versions of the book in hardbacks, these cds often include the authors back catalogue which is excellent. Being able to buy e-arcs from baen often months before the book is published in hardback is admirable also (I think you can also buy some books in sections, which is an admirable initiative though not one i've taken part in). And of course there is the baen ebook library. I look forward to the day when more publishers follow the baen model. (they are also drm free, which is another point in their favour.)

[sting01]

As a customer, I would follow D'rek. As an IT professional, I would tend to argue the work involved in first create the correct format (is it one?) , the device to read it, and the creation of the e-book itself must be remunerated!

In fact, it is the very discussion my own country have since the end of WWII, with the remuneration of artists (mostly singers and musicians), while the idea was courageous and generous, today we do have organisms (2 I believe) collecting that money and then in charge of redistribuating said money ... after they have pay themself (well the guy who come in your shop to collect the money must be able to pay his own bills, feed his familly and so on). At the end, artists still get peanuts (still better than nothing but when compared with the amount collected it is indeed ridiculous), 2 private companies that harass both shopkeepers, publics, and even the artists themself without any controls possible, because such a control would be (with reason) deemed as an intrusion of the state into the private business. Did I forget to precise I am french?

So, in my opinion, there is not much we can do, or we do behave ethically (?spelling, with ethic?) and waste our hard earned money while giving little to the writers; or we try to protect ourself and we cross the border , become criminal, eventually it finish with harsh punishments (millions of $ for some songs downloaded by your kids for exemple). Perso, I made my decisions, but on the other hand it is easy for me because living in Thailand, most of things (books, DvD, games) are cheap : if it is old I download it, if it is recent I buy an official one. I recently applied that rule for movies made before WW2, knowing the actors, theirs kids , even for some of them the little kids are dead since a long time; and the best I can do being to show in Thailand how good (or bad, lol) they were (let say pay my respects to them).

But the line is thin, what is old, and what is recent? The biggest success for a french movie in both theater, and dvd selling, was a movie first spread on internet for free 'Bienvenu chez les tchis', as that movie was corresponding to a cultural reality franco-french (opposition btw the south and the north-west of the country), because it was well done, people saw it online (small screen), then went to theater with the familly, and even then bought the DvD. On the other hand, if success is not here, so how will you pay the electrician, the script girl, and all the small people who worked for the movie?

I do have Deadhouse Gates in both Kindle and tor edition, and paid for both of them; ICE is not famous for stripping him of the 10 pences for him (or about). Let say, some give money when they are to the Mass, other to a political party, I did my bit to support somone who provided with dreams and happiness.

The solution might be to pay for a group, as in UK with the triple buy, but we will have the same discussion than with the computer : a computer is sold with an OS, mostly window, the price of the OS beign include. Law state you can ask to have the OS to be erased, and so have the price tune down corresponding to the removal of it. But, the person who first installed, and then erased it, must also get a salary ... so in fact, you pay the same price (it have been exemple where you was asked for more, on that very ground erasin the OS mean extra work by a technician) and have a computer without OS (basically you can not use it!).

So perso, I would not wish for such a thing happend to books, they are already expensive enought.

For games, well, what about steam going down, or deciding to ban you for whatever reasons (you do not buy enought to justify the maintenace of your accoutn for exemple!)? But what about you making a mistake and pooring the coffe over the cd, or the floppy (happened to me a lot ages ago with Apple IIc). Would I accept to pay twice the price, covering by so the CD/DVD + the steam version? No way, while still it is maybe the safest way to do.

Ideally, we shall be able to buy a good, and have owning fully. But right now, we only buy the right to use said good, we do not own it. So , even a personal copy for your personal safety, or the use by you only on another support is a crime' and that is the real point, and the reason I first spoked about the french SACEM (collecting singers/musician fees , so they say). Who will enforce you really have this copy as a safeguard, will you need to keep proof of your buying for 10 years, who will enforce the fact it is only you who used that copy? And , more importantly, who will pay those who will enforce such rules? And who will controle those who controle us (because tribunal and Police are busy enought with real crime) it will be another corporate suit who will do it, in the sanctified name of private business; or a pseudo adminstration in the name of the sanctified administration.

Small question, but also a deep society analysis that D'rek have propose us.

[Usher]

sting01, on 03 July 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

The solution might be to pay for a group, as in UK with the triple buy, but we will have the same discussion than with the computer : a computer is sold with an OS, mostly window, the price of the OS beign include. Law state you can ask to have the OS to be erased, and so have the price tune down corresponding to the removal of it. But, the person who first installed, and then erased it, must also get a salary ... so in fact, you pay the same price (it have been exemple where you was asked for more, on that very ground erasin the OS mean extra work by a technician) and have a computer without OS (basically you can not use it!).

So perso, I would not wish for such a thing happened to books, they are already expensive enought.

While possible applicable to books, I think that OS-like problems can be avoided if the system is implemented differently. One way to do that is to include customer codes in physical books that allow you to buy a digital format with a special discount from a selected source. This way, you don't actually charge people upfront for something they're not going to use, but you do give them the opportunity to make use of it. It's similar to the single-use codes included in student textbooks to grant the buyer access to online resources related to the book. As both methods, coupon codes and single-use codes, are currently implemented in different forms, the infrastructure for such a solution is already there. Granted, this only works well in one direction, from a physical book to a digital format, and is limited to one time use due to the possibility of abuse, but it's better than what we have.

This is by no means an ideal solution and I'm sure there are better solutions for the logistical aspect of this problem. However, I think the real problem lies with the willingness of large publishers and other stakeholders to find a solution for this logistical problem and the willingness to implement such a solution. Right now, they make money off people buying the same products twice or thrice in different formats (or the same, in case of a coffee incident) and show more concern for the possibilities of piracy and abuse than customer support. The Digital Rights Management debate showed that companies were willing to sacrifice the access of customers to the content for which they've bought the right to view for more protection against piracy. (The most strict implementations of DRM only allowed the customer to associate the product with one device, forcing the customer to buy the product again if that associated device failed or broke down. Current implementations usually limit the amount of devices to five, still ensuring a limited lifetime of the product.)

So, while the objections you raise are real, the main problem with resolving them is not the actual logistics, but the willingness of companies to find resolutions. This holds true for the OS-problem, companies make a lot of money on these package deals, and it holds for books and the like.

This post has been edited by Dr. Usher: 05 November 2013 - 11:02 AM

[Silencer]

Dr. Usher, on 05 November 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

sting01, on 03 July 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

The solution might be to pay for a group, as in UK with the triple buy, but we will have the same discussion than with the computer : a computer is sold with an OS, mostly window, the price of the OS beign include. Law state you can ask to have the OS to be erased, and so have the price tune down corresponding to the removal of it. But, the person who first installed, and then erased it, must also get a salary ... so in fact, you pay the same price (it have been exemple where you was asked for more, on that very ground erasin the OS mean extra work by a technician) and have a computer without OS (basically you can not use it!).

So perso, I would not wish for such a thing happened to books, they are already expensive enought.

While possible applicable to books, I think that OS-like problems can be avoided if the system is implemented differently. One way to do that is to include customer codes in physical books that allow you to buy a digital format with a special discount from a selected source. This way, you don't actually charge people upfront for something they're not going to use, but you do give them the opportunity to make use of it. It's similar to the single-use codes included in student textbooks to grant the buyer access to online resources related to the book. As both methods, coupon codes and single-use codes, are currently implemented in different forms, the infrastructure for such a solution is already there. Granted, this only works well in one direction, from a physical book to a digital format, and is limited to one time use due to the possibility of abuse, but it's better than what we have.

This is by no means an ideal solution and I'm sure there are better solutions for the logistical aspect of this problem. However, I think the real problem lies with the willingness of large publishers and other stakeholders to find a solution for this logistical problem and the willingness to implement such a solution. Right now, they make money off people buying the same products twice or thrice in different formats (or the same, in case of a coffee incident) and show more concern for the possibilities of piracy and abuse than customer support. The Digital Rights Management debate showed that companies were willing to sacrifice the access of customers to the content for which they've bought the right to view for more protection against piracy. (The most strict implementations of DRM only allowed the customer to associate the product with one device, forcing the customer to buy the product again if that associated device failed or broke down. Current implementations usually limit the amount of devices to five, still ensuring a limited lifetime of the product.)

So, while the objections you raise are real, the main problem with resolving them is not the actual logistics, but the willingness of companies to find resolutions. This holds true for the OS-problem, companies make a lot of money on these package deals, and it holds for books and the like.

Never mind the irony that DRM is much more intrusive and restrictive of genuine customers than it is of any pirate. Even "online only" games can be hacked with relative ease to make them pirate-able and playable offline (see: Sim City).

I certainly think that the biggest obstacle to any change in the landscape of distribution are the publishing companies. And why wouldn't they resist change? The current setup is extraordinarily profitable for them, and keeps artists and consumers alike beholden to them. Change is only going to eat into their profits, if not outright destroy their industry entirely. (One can make an argument, therefore, that the industry should be preserved to prevent massive job-sector losses and increased unemployment, but there are counter-arguments and a certain inclination to simply say "are you fucking kidding me?" in response to those who argue that point )

And it bears mentioning that, the way companies have gone around trying to adapt to the changing landscape, have not been in the best manner possible. Generally the latest approach is to treat all genuine customers as pirates/pirates in waiting (see sentence one) and bemoan the "lost profits" from all the real pirates. "Lost profits" figures which are horrendously manipulated and ignore, for example, the "try before you buy" approach some pirates take, or the "pirate now, buy later" mentality, or even the amount of content that is pirated purely because it is economically unfeasible to import to another country - i.e. the pirate would not have purchased the real product if they had not pirated the content in any case.
And then they now attempt to repackage DRM as part of the "future service" approach. You NEED an always-online connection to get the MOST out of this product, so we'll just make it compulsory! Or, we'll add a feature which is "integral" to the experience and NEEDS to be always online. Complete and utter BS, of course, which doesn't change the fact that companies are trying to charge you more, or restrict your ability, to do the things you've always been able to do with media in the past - lend, resell, install on more than one machine, etc. I'm looking at you, Xbox One, and again, Sim City. It only hurts an industry's credibility though, when they later are forced to backpedal and admit they outright lied to their customers. Or do such a godawful job of backpedalling that they blame the customer for rejecting their "innovative" and "awesome" new "features" - clearly, we just weren't ready for draconian DRM dressed up as important and integral...wait, why was it important and integral, again? Oh, wait, it wasn't! Grrrr...

In any case, generally speaking the industries are responsible for making piracy appealing and for alienating their genuine users, most notably in the form of video games and computer software, but also in other media. The insistence on pricing, for example, albums or books at a consistent level despite massive reductions in the cost of, say, CDs, or burning technology, rather than doing the logical thing and lowering their prices (and yes, *gasp*, not making a new record profit for the next year. I know, scandalous. How could they willingly make a hundred million LESS profit, assuming sales don't go up in response to a lower price point or some such silly nonsense like that...) they just make it "harder" to pirate the content and prosecute a few people who download truly insane levels of product. It's counterintuitive and ineffective. You'd think someone would have realized that by now. Never mind that their propaganda on the issue is widely not read and/or ignored by anyone not already employed by themselves. >.>
(Also lol; the only people who see the copyright messages on DVDs? Legitimate purchasers. The reason I found the copyright notice on...I think it was God Bless America's, DVD really awesome? Rather than berating me for burning their precious profits, it THANKED me for buying the legit item. Which makes a fuckload of sense, really, given only a legit consumer will see it, and therefore treating them like a pirate is not the best attitude to take. Really made sense to me. But apparently not to the vast majority of the DVD/movie industry...)

/end rant.

[Usher]

I think I agree with every single word in your rant.


So, what might change the situation? Smaller companies jumping in that do provide these services to the customer? Do they stand a chance against the giants?

[Mentalist]

D, on 26 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Books, movies, games, etc these days all come in lots of different formats, possibly more formats than ever before. In books, for example, not only is there hardcover and paperback versions, but there's e-books that you can read on a special portable reader and some are even available in universal digital formats (ie: some Peter Watt's books are distributed freely by the author as PDFs, which can be read on many, many devices). Instead of just coming in cartridges, video games can now be bought on discs or entirely as digital copies, and can be played on consoles, computers, tablets, smartphones, smart-refrigerators, etc.

Of course, there's advantages and disadvantages of each format. So then people have to choose which format to buy in, and it's not uncommon for later on someone to wish they had it a different format. Currently, the only legal way of getting the thing in another format is to buy it again in this other format.

What do you think of the ethics of that situation? Should companies offer a cheaper alternative than completely re-buying the product in a different format?

Do you think the current system is going to change in the future or stay as it is? Do you think there are any changes to this that would help to combat piracy problems?

---

I think in a more-perfect world, there should be a seperation of content and format. So, for example, you could buy a book in hardback for $25, in massmarket paperback for $10, or a digital version for $10. Some percentage or portion of the cost represents the actual content of the book, so once you have bought it in any format you don't need to pay the content amount again, and can get it in the other format(s) at just the cost of producing it in that format. So if you buy a book for $25 in hardback, and later want an e-book version when you go on vacation you would only have to pay the $3 that represents the publishing/production cost of making the e-book version, but not the full price of getting the same words all over again as if you didn't already have a copy of them.

Is this system possible? Maybe. It would involve a lot of licensing aspects to take care of the intangibleness of having purchased a copy of "content" that exists beyond the mere physical copy and all the legal aspects of that. Furthermore, I don't know how it could work with re-selling, re-gifting or borrowing. If I give my paperback copy of Casket of Souls to my little sister but keep my e-book copy, do we both now have a license to the 'content' without her buying it? Obviously not, but there's nothing to stop her from reading it without a "license" and then giving it someone else. So some parts of that are not going to blend, unless they put little microchips inside the cover of books that explode when you read them without a license.

For things like video games it's a bit easier - lots of companies and programs are already starting to do the whole "cloud" thing, but most games you would still have to buy seperate copies of to play on your smartphone and your computer (ie: minecraft). As long as the game has a digital distribution system, it should be easy to have a system where you don't buy full price to get the same game on two platforms.

The crucial issue with the more-perfect world you are proposing is the existing framework of copyright.

The main thing to understand is this: you cannot copyright an idea. The only thing that's subject to copyright/license is "expression of an idea". And each "format" is a different "expression" (software and data is treated as "literature", since it can all be expressed as 1s and 0s at its most basic), but the "content" of the information actually passed on DOES change, as far as the law is concerned. Same would go for movies (different encoding methods).

That is not to say that the system is good. In fact, the more digital we go, the more bloated and flawed it seems. But a change would involve a truly radical overhaul of how we look at IP law, and it would need to be a truly global initiative, because in reality the principles of IP law are pretty much written by the UN (the concept of copyright developed in a few developed countries nearly simultaneously, but it was always a tool of censorship, as well as a way of protecting the interests of booksellers--not "author's rights".

[Gnaw]

Marx was a bright guy who was mostly wrong. And maybe the biggest mistake he made was the focus on production. Production is irrelevant. Distribution is king. See Wal-Mart.

In "entertainment" the distributors have spent the last 130 years or so screwing the producers. In music, Blues, Jazz and Rock here in the US are the most egregious examples because there was such a racial element involved as well. But there were a whole lot of swing, big band, and country musicians who spent years and decades making fantastic music only to find themselves broke or actually owing the label money. The accounting magic that the movie industry uses dwarfs any special effects on screen; owning a half percentage on gross means you can retire while owning 30% of net won't buy you a cup of coffee. The book industry is arguably the worst of them all; the full details of the magnitude of author screwing are just now coming to light only because the distributors are brining their inside fight for control to the courts.

That business model is dead. The corpses just haven't stopped twitching. Stallman's somewhat hysterical (paranoia definition; not haha definition) "The Right To Read" is hyperbolic. But it could happen.

I have no idea how all this will shake out. But it's about to explode far beyond books, songs, and movies. Already pharmaceutical IP is ignored in a lot of places. 3D printers are going to destroy a number of industries if they don't start adapting soon.

There are certain subjects that I have to remind myself I have no hostages to fortune. So I shrug my shoulders and move on. This is one of those.

[Macros]

Quite a few dvds/blurays now come with a code to download a digital copy onto your computer as well (in the uk at least). So the process is clearly doable for books as well.
and people who cry about the cost of formatting for an ebook can cram it, the books are typed out on computers anyway so a new release the work involved would be relatively minimal. I'm paying £17 for a hardback you can damned well shoot me the ebook for free.

[Grief]

Macros, on 15 December 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Quite a few dvds/blurays now come with a code to download a digital copy onto your computer as well (in the uk at least). So the process is clearly doable for books as well.
and people who cry about the cost of formatting for an ebook can cram it, the books are typed out on computers anyway so a new release the work involved would be relatively minimal. I'm paying £17 for a hardback you can damned well shoot me the ebook for free.

Weren't amazon doing something like that? I know they give you digital downloads when you buy CD's sometimes now.

[Messremb]

Grief, on 15 December 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Macros, on 15 December 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Quite a few dvds/blurays now come with a code to download a digital copy onto your computer as well (in the uk at least). So the process is clearly doable for books as well.
and people who cry about the cost of formatting for an ebook can cram it, the books are typed out on computers anyway so a new release the work involved would be relatively minimal. I'm paying £17 for a hardback you can damned well shoot me the ebook for free.

Weren't amazon doing something like that? I know they give you digital downloads when you buy CD's sometimes now.

Yeah they do it for some movies too, Ultravoilet or some such it is called. I've not used it yet and I think there is a time limit to get the movie on your streaming account with someone else. The music one is not so handy I find - it does however mean I have a lot of music I've bought for other people I can listen to should I ever lose all sense of taste.