Malazan Empire: Rough Timeline - Malazan Empire

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Rough Timeline

#1 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 11:58 AM

ok, with the resurgence of interest in the timeline and my ongoing work with the encyclopaedia, I've come up with a rough timeline based on the books themselves and events that either occur or are mentioned in more than one book, rather than actual printed dates. The only real problem is Midnight Tides, which I've placed roughly concurrent with MoI for the reasons given and others which I can't mention. Suffice it to say that MT cannot (IMO)take place before GotM because of events in RG, making it much more likely that the timing points cited occur at roughly the same time in both MoI and MT smile.gif Some tweaking may be required but I'm virtually certain this has to be the order.

Karsa’s Journey(HoC-1162-63 BS)
.........(*1)GotM(1163 BS)
...................(*2)Memories of Ice (1163 BS)
...........................Deadhouse(*3) Gates(1163-64 BS)
.........................................(*4)Midnight Tides(1163-64 BS)
.....................................................(*5) House of Chains(1164 BS)
..............................................................................(*
6)BH(1164-65 BS)
................................................................................
....(*7)RG(1165-66 BS)




*1 – the fall of Pale
*2 – The Darujhistan Fete
*3 – The Fall of Fener
*4 – The awakening of the Beast Hold, discovery of Theradas Buhn
*5 - The end of the Chain of Dogs
*6 – The death of Sha’ik Reborn
* 7 – Tavore’s fleet sailing to Lether
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Posted 30 March 2006 - 01:12 PM

Nice timeline Mal smile.gif

The three books MoI, DG and MT are all pretty concurrent.. give or take 6 months...... stuff happened biggrin.gif
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#3 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:01 PM

Sounds good. However, unless info from RG explains this (i.e. it's possible to travel through time by going into the Nascent), Midnight Tides must take place significantly before Deadhouse Gates. Unfortunately, without access to Reaper's Gale (any word on how close to being finished that is, btw?), I cannot comment as to the dating with concerns to GotM. The biggest problem with that is that Pale is still under siege when Karsa passes through the Malazan settlements at the start of HoC, and shortly after that he kills Binadas who was on his way to find Trull, thus Trull must have been put on the Wall (an event that took place after Midnight Tides finished) at least several weeks if not months before the Siege of Pale ends.

1) Midnight Tides ends.
2) Trull Sengar stirs up trouble speaking against Rhulad (several weeks at least).
3) Trull Sengar imprisoned on the Wall in the Nascent and left there at least for several weeks.
4) The Edur fleets spread across the world and capture the Silanda (several months, surely).
5) Karsa passes through northern Genabackis before the Siege of Pale ends, or roughly at the same time as it ends.
6) Binadas takes the Silanda into the Nascent to find Trull for whatever reason.
7) Karsa meets Binadas and introduces him to the spear.
8) Onrack rescues Trull from the Nascent Wall after Paran has freed the Hounds from Dragnipur. The appearance of the Deragoth shortly after this in Malazworld must place these events as happening as they appear to in the book (i.e. all during the events of House of Chains).

Date references (mainly from TBH):
The Edur spend 2 years raiding the Nemil and 6 months sailing along Seven Cities' north coast after the events of Midnight Tides (putting Midnight Tides in 1162 at the latest).
Karsa spends several years in Sha'ik's camp before Felisin and Heboric show up. I'm sure I read '3 years' in HoC but am now unable to find the reference (putting Midnight Tides in 1161 at the latest).

:Erm: (goes and lies down)
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#4 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:07 PM

I'm with what Wetherhead says.
Also, if events in RG make it impossible for that to be right, isn't that a fairly major spoiler for that book?
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#5 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:10 PM

Actually, I think it would be for the best if Mal just sent me whatever completed chapters of RG are in existence. It would be terribly inconvenient but I'm sure I could find the time to plough through it and put together a timeline from the evidence in that. I see no problems with this plan smile.gif
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#6 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:52 PM

Well, personally I agree with Werthead on the timeline... MT being concurrent with MOI just doesn't work with what we've learnt about the Edur, if MT takes place concurrently to MOI, then the sacking of Callows by the Edur fleet must have taken place during or soon after MT, which doens't work with what we've learnt of the movements of the Edur and MT.

Since Callows was sacked almost at the beginning of MOI, and the Tiste Edur body was found before the wolf gods took command of the beast hold, Feather Witches reading must be a prophecy, as these events must have taken place after FW reading, so that can't be taken as a marker.

The finding of the body of Theredas Buhn cannot be considered a marker for MT as the body could have been under water for centuries, it seems it must have been dislodged by the passage of Moon Spawn under water. I've seen nothing else in MT indicating concurrence with MOI.

When we consider the fact that Karsa killed Binidas soon after the beginning of GotM, even considering the time distorting nature of the nascent, it would suggest that MT must have taken place before GotM, as Binidas's presence in the Nascent must have taken at least a few months to come about.

Then there's the Edur fleets, and Alrahda Ahns testimony, for the Edur fleets to travel to seven cities on the other side of the world, raiding as they went must have had at a very minimum taken a few years, as the fleets had to built and set out, the letherii conquest finalised, coupled with the two year date and Trulls imprisoning on the 943rd day of the search, all seem to indicate that MT took place at least a year before the main sequence of books, if not more...

So unless there's some very convincing evidence in RG (feel free to send me me some chapters as well to look over if you wish wink.gif ) I'd say MT MUST be before GotM, and I have a feeling that it could have taken place a good few years before it.
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#7 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:57 PM

I think everybody who's read this thread so far should get sent some chapters of RG, just because.
>_>
It'll take some of Abyss's attention away from you lot, too...
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#8 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Werthead)
Sounds good. However, unless info from RG explains this (i.e. it's possible to travel through time by going into the Nascent), Midnight Tides must take place significantly before Deadhouse Gates. Unfortunately, without access to Reaper's Gale (any word on how close to being finished that is, btw?), I cannot comment as to the dating with concerns to GotM. The biggest problem with that is that Pale is still under siege when Karsa passes through the Malazan settlements at the start of HoC, and shortly after that he kills Binadas who was on his way to find Trull, thus Trull must have been put on the Wall (an event that took place after Midnight Tides finished) at least several weeks if not months before the Siege of Pale ends.

1) Midnight Tides ends.
2) Trull Sengar stirs up trouble speaking against Rhulad (several weeks at least).
3) Trull Sengar imprisoned on the Wall in the Nascent and left there at least for several weeks.
4) The Edur fleets spread across the world and capture the Silanda (several months, surely).
5) Karsa passes through northern Genabackis before the Siege of Pale ends, or roughly at the same time as it ends.
6) Binadas takes the Silanda into the Nascent to find Trull for whatever reason.
7) Karsa meets Binadas and introduces him to the spear.
8) Onrack rescues Trull from the Nascent Wall after Paran has freed the Hounds from Dragnipur. The appearance of the Deragoth shortly after this in Malazworld must place these events as happening as they appear to in the book (i.e. all during the events of House of Chains).

Date references (mainly from TBH):
The Edur spend 2 years raiding the Nemil and 6 months sailing along Seven Cities' north coast after the events of Midnight Tides (putting Midnight Tides in 1162 at the latest).
Karsa spends several years in Sha'ik's camp before Felisin and Heboric show up. I'm sure I read '3 years' in HoC but am now unable to find the reference (putting Midnight Tides in 1161 at the latest).

:Erm: (goes and lies down)


re: Karsa's journey and the siege of Pale..actually the news of Pale's fall is heard at Culvern Crossing, I'll just paste something I wrote about this earlier:

QUOTE
When Karsa is captured (the second time) in the town on Silver Lake, Silgar notes that the Malazan principal army is currently 'bogged down outside the walls of Pale', placing that event between 1160 and 1163 BS.(HoC, UK MMPB, p.160)...shortly thereafter, 'the latest news from the south' is that Pale is fallen (HoC, UK MMPB, p.170), therefore the year must be 1163 BS, as only 3 days pass between Karsa's capture and the departure from Silver Lake (HoC, UK MMPB, p.165) and 6 days between then and the arrival at Culvern Crossing, where the news of Pale's fall is heard (HoC, UK MMPB, p.166). It seems unlikely that the news would take very long to travel, perhaps a week or two at the outside, considering the sorcerous means of communication available to the Malazans and the obvious advantages of spreading the news among both the Genabackan natives and the Malazan soldiers. So...1163 BS, Karsa begins his second journey, making the date of his departure from his tribe late 1162 or 1163 BS (not 1159), as the journey to Silver Lake takes a few weeks at maximum (HoC, UK MMPB, p.32) and Karsa isn't imprisoned for more than a few days after his initial capture.


re: the problem with the order of events in the Nascent...I fear these issues can never be resolved properly. We have several clues that time does not flow 'normally' in the Nascent and so I've just ignored that, but I'll see if I can work it out another way:

1) Trull Sengar is Shorn and chained in the Nascent, Binadas and co. enter the Nascent as part of the Search for worthy foes around the same time, or perhaps before (which would work better).
2) Time, relative to the the Malazan realm, effectively stops.
3) let's say Karsa's journey takes him through most of the events of MoI, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me...was Binadas around at the end of MT?, he could have left earlier than the rest of the Edur fleet, I think......anyway, since we know that time doesn't flow normally in the Nascent, I don't have any problem excluding the events that occurred with in that warren from consideration in the timeline, whether it's an honest mistake on SE's part or something he did on purpose...I think it's barely possible for it to makes sense if time effectively stands still in the Nascert, at least for the period immediately following the catastrophic flooding. If not, then time has to flow backward (again, perhaps just for that time period) or some sort of time-shift occurs when entering/leaving that Realm, not necessarily consistent in any way, shape or form with the timeline in the mortal realm.

re: the dates/durations mentioned from BH..I don't have a canonical copy of BH yet, being in Canada, so I will have to rely on others for confirmation or denial, quotes, pg. ref's etc. ...let's put it this way, if we can agree that BH ends in 1165 and that Tavore's fleet arrives at Lether in 1165 or 1166, then MT has to be in 1163 or 1164, more likely 1163, which works with the existing timing points between the two. If these dates or estimates thereof from BH don't fit with that, then they are misleading, imo smile.gif

the ref. re: the years Karsa spends with Sha'ik says simply 'in the years he spent there' iirc, and must be discarded imo...I will hunt this down momentarily...

of course, there are other ways to render the timeline, depending on which quotes one chooses to accept over others. I just think this one makes the most sense smile.gif
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#9 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Imperial Historian)
Well, personally I agree with Werthead on the timeline... MT being concurrent with MOI just doesn't work with what we've learnt about the Edur, if MT takes place concurrently to MOI, then the sacking of Callows by the Edur fleet must have taken place during or soon after MT, which doens't work with what we've learnt of the movements of the Edur and MT.

Since Callows was sacked almost at the beginning of MOI, and the Tiste Edur body was found before the wolf gods took command of the beast hold, Feather Witches reading must be a prophecy, as these events must have taken place after FW reading, so that can't be taken as a marker.

The finding of the body of Theredas Buhn cannot be considered a marker for MT as the body could have been under water for centuries, it seems it must have been dislodged by the passage of Moon Spawn under water. I've seen nothing else in MT indicating concurrence with MOI.

When we consider the fact that Karsa killed Binidas soon after the beginning of GotM, even considering the time distorting nature of the nascent, it would suggest that MT must have taken place before GotM, as Binidas's presence in the Nascent must have taken at least a few months to come about.

Then there's the Edur fleets, and Alrahda Ahns testimony, for the Edur fleets to travel to seven cities on the other side of the world, raiding as they went must have had at a very minimum taken a few years, as the fleets had to built and set out, the letherii conquest finalised, coupled with the two year date and Trulls imprisoning on the 943rd day of the search, all seem to indicate that MT took place at least a year before the main sequence of books, if not more...

So unless there's some very convincing evidence in RG (feel free to send me me some chapters as well to look over if you wish wink.gif ) I'd say MT MUST be before GotM, and I have a feeling that it could have taken place a good few years before it.


those are good points...

I had forgotten about Callows...arrgh!...um...well if they travelled through the Nascent and time either went backwards or the time-shift idea as presented above it could still work tongue.gif

sure Theradas is only circumstantial, but I just feel it was placed by SE for the express purpose of establishing a timing point between the two books.

I don't think Karsa enters the Nascent 'soon after the beginning of GotM' actually...once he starts travelling by ship, months pass, taking us well into MoI, as GotM doesn't actually take up a lot of time, only a month or so imo.

The Edur fleets were already built, so no problem there...and again, I dunno about these estimates of two years of raiding, so someone please help. There is some flex there, so say BH begins at the very end of 1164, it is the season of D'rek, Worm of Autumn, after all smile.gif...so if the Edur fleets left Lether in 1163 sometime, then 1165 is two years, a couple of months here or there doesn't bother me.

and yes, the evidence in RG is irrefutable imo...I wouldn't bother with this if Kallor hadn't brought it up, and I'm sorry I can't be more clear...I'll do some more thinking on this and post again later...could be some tweaking is in order...
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Posted 30 March 2006 - 03:33 PM

Well I've got no evidence to back this up... it's more a gut feeling if you like..

I've thought that perhaps the timing of the Path of Hands and the Letherii Seventh Closure are simultaneous... after all, FW sees twin destinies in her readings of the tiles.... and involves the awakening of the Beast Hold smile.gif
edit : oh yeah.. I suppose I could throw the ending of the third Diaspora in as well.. the Imass Gathering....
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#11 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 03:51 PM

hmmm, ok I think it's barely possible that MT takes place in 1162, which actually jives with the date given for Withal's arrival in the CG's realm as three years prior to the Seventh closure and 1159, the bulk of the events of the book taking place in 1162 and perhaps extending into 1163, which could accomodate Callows, the partial decay of Theradas Buhn's body and the two years of travel and raiding of the Edur fleets before BH...

edit: found the quote re: Karsa's years with Sha'ik...

'These years have served me well. Your company, Leoman. Sha’ik Elder.'(HoC, UK Trade, p.336)

I think we're probably into 1164 at that point in the book and from the context it seems to me he could be referring to the totality of his experiences since leaving his homeland, not only his time in Raraku... will have a closer look at it later, maybe. In any case, I think the issue of Karsa's personal timeline can be considered separate from the timeline as a whole if it comes to it. If SE erred either in the mention of Pale's fall in HoC or in this offhand comment by Karsa, I'm willing to put it aside and concentrate on events that I think are more inportant and reliable, along with the mess of the Nascent smile.gif

oh, and I checked, Binadas is at the final showdown in the throne room in MT, so he couldn't have left earlier...1162 is looking beter and better for the events of MT smile.gif
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#12 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 05:51 PM

The only dates given in TBH is '1164' at the start of the prologue and bit later, '1164' again in Chapter 1, along with '58 days after Sha'ik's Execution in Raraku'.

We are then told that the Tiste Edur have been raiding the country of Nemil (west of the Olphann Peninsula, north-west of the Jhag Odhan, north of the Trell Lands) for over 2 years. From Seven Cities the direction to Lether seems to be west or slightly south-west across a large ocean. My quasi-SE-approved World Map also seems to support this. Another Edur fleet has also been exploring the northern coast of Seven Cities for the past six months looking for worthy champions to face Rhulad, whilst a third Edur fleet (possibly individual ships or skirmishers) have sailed south around Seven Cities and engaged Malazan warships off Quon Tali.

That's about it for date references. TBH seems to cover a period of perhaps 3-4 months, probably no more, possibly less, thanks to magical speeding-up of the sea travelling (the Eres pushing the boats from the base of the Olphara Peninsular to Perish in what seems to be just a week or two, then through the Perish portal to the Horn of Quon Tali, then pushing them again to Malaz Island in just a few days). TBH therefore ends at the very end of 1164 or in the first month or two of 1165.

The distance from Quon Tali to Lether sailing west, past the southern tip of Seven Cities, would be rather large but not prohibitively so. Say, 3-4 months of constant travel, possibly more? That puts us in the middle of 1165 when Tavore and co. reach the Letherii continent.

BTW, TBH says specifically that Binadas was sent by his father into the Nascent specifically to look for Trull (and not to tell Rhulad), not for any other reason. Also, the note at the front of the TBH suggests that SE employed ICE to keep track of the timeline for the book, so I'm guessing that dates and time-periods in TBH are therefore more reliable than for the earlier books?
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#13 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 06:20 PM

ok, thanks Werthead smile.gif...that all seems to work with an 1162 or early 1163 date for the end of MT...it absolutely cannot be earlier than that, I hasten to add wink.gif everything else fits in nicely, if a little tightly, aside from the stuff too problematic to take seriously...so MT does go before GotM, my bad smile.gif I think , then , that we have a solid rough timeline as follows...

1) end of MT (1162-3)
2) Karsa's journey begins (1163, unless the tie-in with the fall of Pale is a mistake, in which case it could be earlier))
3) GotM (about a month in late 1163)
4) MoI (begins a couple of months after the end of GotM, 1164 now that I double-check)
5) DG is roughly concurrent with MoI (1163-prologue, 1164 for the bulk of the book)
6) HoC follows directly from the end of DG (within a month to 6 weeks for sure - 1164)
7) BH follows directly from the end of HoC (2 months, give or take a few days and it's still 1164, though it must be late in the year, likely we're into 1165 by the end of the book)
8) RG may overlap some with BH but also continues on into 1165
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#14 User is offline   Werthead 

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 09:32 PM

It would be good to get the date (if there is one) that SE's put in the prologue and/or Chapter 1 of RG (since the prologue may take place millennia earlier, based on that quote that slipped out a few months back).

(checks Amazon)

Damn, Bantam are waiting until 1 March 2007 before putting out TBH paperback, which no doubt will have the RG prologue in it.
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#15 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 09:51 PM

Looks good to me, can't see any problems with it...

And it even means we only have to consider two dates as incorrect, both from the beginning of HoC, the date of Trulls chaining and the date that Karsa sets off... otherwise all the dates fit.

Perhaps SE will correct them at some point, though seeing as he's already corrected the Trull date once before... maybe not...
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Posted 22 May 2006 - 06:50 PM

Ok, this is my understanding of the timeline (Updated):

MT – 1161/62 BS
GotM – 1163 BS
DG & MoI – 1164 BS
HoC – 1164 BS
BH - 1164/65 BS

Explanation:
In prologue we learn that 1159 Burn's Sleep is 3 years before Seventh Closure. Main part of the book starts 1 year before Seventh Closure = 1161 - the time of Sorry's possession. Seventh Closure is 1162. This fits very well as we know MT is prequel.

There’s a problem here. We learn in HoC prologue that Trull is shorned in 1159. That would mean he spends 5 years on the wall as HoC takes place 1164 BS.

That obviously doesn’t fit with MT. Trull’s shorning took place 943rd Day of Search in the prologue and I also think it means the search for the Throne of Shadow so and that this search was most likely ordered by Rhulad so it would mean 1161/2 + 2 years 7 months = 1164. That would mean he get there right before Onrack found him and he could’ve survived on the wall even without magic.

Another (small) inconsitency - we know it is also a day after rift that let the river from demon world flood Nascent is closed. Before that it was flooded for months. So it is several months after MT as we've heard about rift opening in MT. So maybe it's main story of HoC that starts on 943rd Day of Search and Trull was shorned in 1163.

There are more such slips in HoC e.g. Karsa starts his journey also in 1159 but when he is captured by Malazans they talk about fall of Pale (that's 1163 BS – where did this 4 years go?). So I tend to assume this date is false and it should be 1162 (maybe 63) in prologue and when Karsa leaves his village. Then everything fits.

I generally tend to trust dates (or clues) from the text more then the one's in the beggings of chapters as they are often contradictory.

Nascent is flooded in 1161/62. Trull is shorned in 1162/63. Karsa gets there 1163. Felisin and the rest get there in 1164. And of course Trull is freed in 1164. BH starts in 1164 but happens mostly in 1165.

As for why MT doesn’t happen earlier – we read several comments about how recently Nascent was flooded. There’s still grass under the water. Even if time flows differently in warrens it still more likely it couple of years not decades.

And for sure there is something strange with time flow in Nascent. When Karsa meets Silanda (1163 BS – remember it is after Pale fell) it’s fully functional ship, but when Gesler &co finds it in 1164 BS (about a year later) it looks like it was rotting for decades even though time doesn’t move onboard (corpses don’t decay, beards don’t grow). Somehow Silanda gets to look like an old wreck but it surly wasn’t decades since Karsa killed all its crew.

MT also doesn’t happen during MoI. What Feather Witch says is obviously a prophecy. She foretells future events in reverse order. Here’s my interpretation :
Hold of Beast finding new rulers - Togg and Fanderay (MoI) This one is most obvious.
Azath house under siege – we learned of one – Tremolor (DG).
Opened tomb and Ice Hold – this suggests Raest(GotM).
The dragon one is most mysterious.
And last one is actually first to happen – the conflict between two empires (MT).

Then there's BH. It starts in about 2 months after 1164 but that has to be the end of that year. Then everybody travel for really long time wink.gif. It lasts about 7-11 months - Paran mentions it's been two years since he freed hound of Shadow from Dragnipur (that was 1163) and Scillara goes from not showing to giving birth (circa 7 months) and there are plenty of stuff happening after that - so it ends well into 1165.
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#17 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:15 PM

The date of Trull's Shorning - 1159 - is usually dismissed as a mistake. I think MT occured somewhere in period of GotM-MoI.

As an aside, I'm beginning to doubt the ~100 years figure for the lifetime of the Empire. It just makes a lot more sense for the Empire to be considerably younger, say 30-50 years, it makes so much more sense when you consider the ages of numerous characters.

For example we have Duiker raised from the ranks early in the Empire's lifetime to Imperial Historian - but he learned to read and write at the same time as a teenaged Toc the Younger, and Toc didn't seem that old in GotM, no more than late thirties, if that. Can't reconcile that at all with Duiker having been Imperial Historian for any more than 20 or so years, which doesn't seem right.

A briefer Empire would also make the ages of the Old Guard more reasonable, even allowing for the mystical benefits of one-time residence in the Deadhouse. For example, I really don't think that Admiral Nok, the Crust Brothers and the rest are 150+ years old (Empire is ~105 years old, the Family must've been active for a reasonable length of time before formation of Empire, they were mostly individuals of power/note before joining the Family).

The only basis we have for the duration of the Empire are a few quotes from GotM, there's nothing in later books that I can think of to support the 100+ year figure, and much to contradict it.
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#18 User is offline   Ellestra 

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Dolorous Menhir)
As an aside, I'm beginning to doubt the ~100 years figure for the lifetime of the Empire. It just makes a lot more sense for the Empire to be considerably younger, say 30-50 years, it makes so much more sense when you consider the ages of numerous characters.

For example we have Duiker raised from the ranks early in the Empire's lifetime to Imperial Historian - but he learned to read and write at the same time as a teenaged Toc the Younger, and Toc didn't seem that old in GotM, no more than late thirties, if that. Can't reconcile that at all with Duiker having been Imperial Historian for any more than 20 or so years, which doesn't seem right.

A briefer Empire would also make the ages of the Old Guard more reasonable, even allowing for the mystical benefits of one-time residence in the Deadhouse. For example, I really don't think that Admiral Nok, the Crust Brothers and the rest are 150+ years old (Empire is ~105 years old, the Family must've been active for a reasonable length of time before formation of Empire, they were mostly individuals of power/note before joining the Family).

The only basis we have for the duration of the Empire are a few quotes from GotM, there's nothing in later books that I can think of to support the 100+ year figure, and much to contradict it.


Why not - there's plenty of examples of longevity in the books - Tattersail 200, Kallor 100 000. I never had problem with them being over 100.

I only wonder about Whiskeyjack - his sister is supposed to be 25 so he cannot be very old - 40-ish maybe? Still he is described looking old and Raraku supposed to slow him. I know he wasn't there from the begining of the Empire but I thought he was actually older - 70-ty maybe.
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#19 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 10:54 PM

The relationship between the age of the empire and the age of the old gaurd figures is certainly an odd one, but not that odd if you consider that the major expansion of the empire was fairly recent...

Duiker being lifted from the ranks as a veteran of the first army, and then being tutored along with Toc for example, can't have happened more than 30 years ago inmo (since toc doesn't seem that old), but that doesn't preclude the empire being 100 years old, Duiker fought in the wars that led to the subjagation of the Quon continent, and was active as Imperial Historian in time for the Wickan Wars... taking into account that veterans of the Wickan wars were still in active service this need not have been too long ago, if you set the active life of a soldier over at say 40-45, and the earliest start 16, the war can not have ended over 30 years ago.

The Seven Cities campaigns seem also to have been in recent times, the final subjagation of the continent taking place only a decade or so before the main series, and the bridgeburners themselves being formed in that conflict (which i have a vague recollection of occuring 10 years before Kelvanned's "death", shortly after he gained control over the Imass.

The Genebackis campaigns seem to be realtively recent, and the Koreli campaign was realitively new at the beginning of NoK.

This can quite easily give a figure for the major expansion of the empire as 30 years, the campaigns on seven cities, genabackis and korel are all recent, and the final conquest of the Quon continent (if you consider the end of the Wickan rebellion to be it's final conquest).

So if the Empire is 100 years old, the empire spent 70 years conqering the Quon Continent, and then exploded once this was achieved. Now 70 years conquering the continent from the small foothold on Malaz Island isn't suprising, first you've got to create an army, then defeat the major power in the region Unta, and then take over the rest of a fairly huge continent slowly building up the strength of the empire... Seven Cities may have been conquered in a decade or so, but this was only because of the T'lan Imass, without whom the empire would have struggled even with the resources of a whole continent behind them, so conquering a continent with initially only the resources of a small island is quote some achievement, plus you've got to factor in time for Kel and Dancers travels to Shal-Morzinn and beyond, easily 70 years in my view.
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#20 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:29 PM

But as mentioned above - there is the extreme youth of Dunsparrow, she only appears to be in her 20s, yet Fid and WJ were getting up to high-jinks with Hood when she was a baby, and this seemed to be before they enlisted.

There is also the GotM age of Dujek (79) which, although often dismissed as a GotMism, conflicts with a 100 year old Empire since Admiral Nok says that Dujek was there from the beginning.

On the other hand, Riggalai spoke at the beginning of GotM of how Itko Kan had been under the Imperial yoke for generations, so long that they liked it.

There just seems to be a general sense of the Empire being younger that 100 years. Characters never speak of how their grandparents were Imperials, there's no sense of a long Imperial history outside the lifetimes of current characters, it just doesn't feel right.
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