[Egwene]

Question raised on the Wiki:

Where did the number 10 (as in cabal members) come from? In OST Chapter 15 Tserig says:"One of the Twelve. The demon slaves of the Tyrant Kings" referring to a member of the Cabal.

Can anyone here explain the whole thing in a nutshell? ... or two?

[Gorefest]

Not sure if I understand the question. Where does the number ten come from? I thought the 'current-day' Cabal had nine members, until Vorcan killed all but two of them? According the the old legends, there were originally 12 fiends assisting the Legate. There's 12 side chambers in the Legate's tomb, etc.

[James Hutton]

Egwene, on 19 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Where did the number 10 (as in cabal members) come from?

From the Gardens of the Moon Dramatis Personae? I've lent my book to a friend, so I can't check myself.

[D'rek]

Gorefest, on 19 June 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

I thought the 'current-day' Cabal had nine members, until Vorcan killed all but two of them?

IIRC, Vorcan says there are 9 members (other than herself) in GotM before she goes and kills 6 of them.

[Imperial Historian]

The other members of the twelve demons being hinter, who at some point was killed and now exists as a ghost and aman who seems to have been imprisoned with the tyrant and wants to bring back the tyrant.

[D'rek]

Imperial Historian, on 24 June 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

The other members of the twelve demons being hinter, who at some point was killed and now exists as a ghost and aman who seems to have been imprisoned with the tyrant and wants to bring back the tyrant.

Maaaaaaybe. It does indeed seem like there should be 12, not only from the quotes in OST but the tomb Ebbin finds in OST has the Tyrant's masked corpse and 12 vaults in it. But one of those vaults has a corpse in it as if that Cabal member had not escaped like the rest. So with that plus Hinter and Aman we have 13 possibilities:


Baruk (Barukanal)
Mammot (Mammoltenan)
Derudan (Derudanith)
Vorcan
Travale (Travalegrah) -- killed by Vorcan in GotM
Tholas -- killed by Vorcan in GotM
Parald -- killed by Vorcan in GotM
Unnamed1 -- killed by Vorcan in GotM
Unnamed2 -- killed by Vorcan in GotM
Unnamed3 -- killed by Vorcan in GotM
Hinter
Aman
The "huge inhuman corpse, with taloned hands and feet" that is still in the vault

So, I would guess that either Hinter or Aman is not really an original member of the 12 T'orrud (Taya serves the Tyrant and wasn't one either, after all). Did we get any direct quotes saying they were?

[Imperial Historian]

I always assumed that the corpse was hinter or aman.

I got the impression from somewhere that Aman was possessing humans rather than being present in his original form, but I've no idea where I got that impression from.

Hinter could equally be the corpse (as he is a ghost), but he seems to have been present in the city long enough to build hinters tower before dying.

[D'rek]

Imperial Historian, on 24 June 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I always assumed that the corpse was hinter or aman.

I got the impression from somewhere that Aman was possessing humans rather than being present in his original form, but I've no idea where I got that impression from.

Hinter could equally be the corpse (as he is a ghost), but he seems to have been present in the city long enough to build hinters tower before dying.

Yeah, I suppose it's possible that the soul of the demon-body within the crypt escaped so it could be Aman or Hinter (or another), but I don't recall anything to suggest that? The crypt was heavily magically warded - if the doors on that T'orrud's cell were not broken I would think that means he can't get out either physically, magically or spiritually.

Hinter seems to have a pretty unique role compared to Baruk and Aman once the Tyrant re-emerges. Maybe that is just down to him being a shade, but it could also show that he was not a T'orrud. After all, his ghost-form is still human, if he were a T'orrud shouldn't his ghost be his true demon form?

[Dadding]

I just finished reading OST and there's nothing that really says Aman or Hinter are part of the cabal or not that I can remember.

Taya on the other hand... Spindle thinks: "Inhuman. No youth could possibly be this strong. Like a damned High Mage, this one is". Whether that's because she's the daughter of Vorcan or a cabal member herself I don't know. Fisher also talks to her briefly and then quotes "Twelve their fell number, dragged and chained from Abysss deepest pits" and Taya freaks out... I'm not sure if he's implying she is one of the twelve, or if she just freaks out because he knows about the twelve.

I'd never really considered her part of it, but there's some confusion there.

This post has been edited by Dadding: 24 June 2015 - 06:20 PM

[D'rek]

OR, here's an alternate idea!


The 12 T'orrud are:


Barukanal
Mammoltenan
Derudanith
Vorcan
Travalegrah
Tholas
Parald
Hinter
Aman
Alice (Unnamed1)
Joe (Unnamed2)
Bob (Unnamed3)


At the first Shattering of Imperial Darujhistan, the Tyrant and all 12 T'orrud are locked in the crypt.


Eventually, all 11 T'orrud except Bob escape and they form the Cabal in Darujhistan. Bob does not escape and dies in the crypt - he is the corpse in the last cell that Ebbin finds.

At some point, Hinter dies as well, and becomes a ghost haunting his tower. For some reason, he stays human-looking as a ghost.


That leaves us 10 T'orrud left alive:

Barukanal
Mammoltenan
Derudanith
Vorcan
Travalegrah
Tholas
Parald
Aman (Unnamed in GotM)
Alice (Unnamed)
Joe (Unnamed)


So when Vorcan says there are 9 others that includes Aman, and then Vorcan kills Travale, Tholas, Parald, Aman, Alice and Joe. Somehow, Aman only makes Vorcan think she killed him but manages to survive. Hence in OST when Aman shows up and everyone is like "we thought you were dead, Aman" that could be referring to the events of GotM, rather than a much longer-ago supposed death.

[D'rek]

Dadding, on 24 June 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

I just finished reading OST and there's nothing that really says Aman or Hinter are part of the cabal or not that I can remember.

Taya on the other hand... Spindle thinks: "Inhuman. No youth could possibly be this strong. Like a damned High Mage, this one is". Whether that's because she's the daughter of Vorcan or a cabal member herself I don't know. Fisher also talks to her briefly and then quotes "Twelve their fell number, dragged and chained from Abysss deepest pits" and Taya freaks out... I'm not sure if he's implying she is one of the twelve, or if she just freaks out because he knows about the twelve.

I'd never really considered her part of it, but there's some confusion there.

Vorcan is definitively stated to be a demon (and Baruk and the crypt-corpse are shown to be demons, quite likely all the T'orrud are demons that took the form of humans after they escaped the crypts in order to blend in). I don't think Taya is one of the original T'orrud, she's just demonic because she is the daughter of Vorcan. Her magery doesn't really seem up to par with the other T'orruds.

[Abyss]

The simple reasonable explanation is that a few of them were killed over the millennia and never replaced, ressurrected or otherwise kept in play.
It's not like the T-K was around to make sure, nor was there a 'requirement' that 12 Cabal be active before the TK could return.

Hinter just happens to have been powerful enough to survive his body's death.

[worry]

Indeed, she seems to be a recruit of Aman's, and largely a way to flip the bird at Vorcan (since Taya is used as muscle and as a gofer, and little else).

[Abyss]

worry, on 24 June 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Indeed, she seems to be a recruit of Aman's, and largely a way to flip the bird at Vorcan (since Taya is used as muscle and as a gofer, and little else).

Agreed. Interesting that Derudan and Vorcan were the only ones strong enough to resist the TK.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 24 June 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

worry, on 24 June 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Indeed, she seems to be a recruit of Aman's, and largely a way to flip the bird at Vorcan (since Taya is used as muscle and as a gofer, and little else).

Agreed. Interesting that Derudan and Vorcan were the only ones strong enough to resist the TK.

I always thought that was because of the preparations they took to prevent their bieng controlled. Vorcan set up multiple magical barriers and chained herself in her basement. Derudan took the guise of a beggr and I am pretty sure drew on some pretty heavy magic. Baruk I always thought, was overconfident and was caught unready by the Tyrant.

[worry]

Yah. That's not a contradiction though.

[Egwene]

Thank you for all the contributions. I especially like D'rek's idea of Aman being one of Vorcan's unnamed victims

I have updated the Wiki page to be less definite on the numbers and linked it to this thread. Most of the 'action' info from the books is still missing but hopefully what there is, is correct.

http://malazan.wikia...T%27orrud_Cabal