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Didnt understand this book at all help me please

#1 User is offline   bockhorn 

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 08:59 PM

Hi guys

So I realize one of Erikson's trademarks is that one isn't supposed to understand everything that goes on in his books. However, I didn't really understand the STORY of this book. So many characters and events just felt... superflous? I feel I am not understanding the significance of many things that happened.

First of all, what the hell was the deal with the toblakai gods? why were they even in this book? I have no idea what purpose they served other than being just a side-story (which, by the way, the whole book felt as, a side story that is)

The ending scene in the throne room felt very very confusing. I don't understand anything here basically. Why did Brys knowlingly drink the poisoned wine? who was going to take care of Rhulad? WHY didnt rhulad simply kill the warlock king when he was resurrected, his betrayal being all but obvious?

who was the guardian that carried brys (dead) to that other realm? and why was he important and why was Brys meeting him important?

what purpose did the resurrected Tiste Andii that accompanied Withal, serve?


Can someone basically explain to me what actually happened in this book, please?

I really liked all the books so far, especialyl memories of ice lol, man, that is one of the most powerful books ive ever read. Im a grown man and I actually wept openly when I read that book. Midnight tides however was a huge disappointment... I think? Basically I WANT to like this book but since I didn't understand even half of it im having a very hard time doing that. The only parts I really liked was Trull, the relationship between udinaas and Rhulad and Fear's character arc.
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#2 User is offline   Esa1996 

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 09:17 PM

View Postbockhorn, on 01 May 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

Hi guys

So I realize one of Erikson's trademarks is that one isn't supposed to understand everything that goes on in his books. However, I didn't really understand the STORY of this book. So many characters and events just felt... superflous? I feel I am not understanding the significance of many things that happened.

First of all, what the hell was the deal with the toblakai gods? why were they even in this book? I have no idea what purpose they served other than being just a side-story (which, by the way, the whole book felt as, a side story that is)

The ending scene in the throne room felt very very confusing. I don't understand anything here basically. Why did Brys knowlingly drink the poisoned wine? who was going to take care of Rhulad? WHY didnt rhulad simply kill the warlock king when he was resurrected, his betrayal being all but obvious?

who was the guardian that carried brys (dead) to that other realm? and why was he important and why was Brys meeting him important?

what purpose did the resurrected Tiste Andii that accompanied Withal, serve?


Can someone basically explain to me what actually happened in this book, please?

I really liked all the books so far, especialyl memories of ice lol, man, that is one of the most powerful books ive ever read. Im a grown man and I actually wept openly when I read that book. Midnight tides however was a huge disappointment... I think? Basically I WANT to like this book but since I didn't understand even half of it im having a very hard time doing that. The only parts I really liked was Trull, the relationship between udinaas and Rhulad and Fear's character arc.


Can't help with the question, but I can say that I was slightly disappointed in MT too, and that the next book is in my opinion the best one in the series, so it should be pretty entertaining. You might want to start reading Esslemont's books too, as you go forward in the series. NoK after TBH, RotCG after RG, the rest after TCG (That's my order, and it worked well. No spoilers for anything.)
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#3 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 09:21 PM

Midnight Tides is an introduction to a new continent and characters, and story arcs that continue in the next books and also tie in with the previous ones. Keep reading. I enjoyed it first time round, but understood it more on a reread, and really began to appreciate it later on after I'd finished the series.

It does seem daunting at first, but as you become aware of the links between Lether and the First Empire, the Holds and the Warrens, as well as the lack of a realm of death due to Gothos' ritual, and finding out about the Tiste Edur betrayal of the Andii, the flooding of the Nacent, and the origins of the Edur ships.. well yes, this book is epic. Don't expect to understand it all the first time round.

Brys didn't know the wine was poisoned. He was unaware of the dying King behind him - he simply picks up a cup as a casual gesture after beating Rhulad. The Errant no doubt provided a 'nudge' at this point, as he 'delights in the tragic.'

The resurrected Tiste Andii appears in the following books so rafo.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 01 May 2015 - 09:37 PM

So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#4 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 09:50 PM

Midnight Tides is hugely important for the remainder of the series, as it sets up many things that have repercussions to the very end. So it's anything but superfluous.

Others may be able to explain it better, but here's that for now:

The Toblakai gods were a side story that showed what kinds of being were imprisoned by the Azath and to give the Crimson Guard something to do. As far as I'm concerned it's really 'just' a side story, but it's not like it's the first side story in the books. In fact, it should be obvious by MT that asides are a continuos thing in this series. Worldbuilding, stuff like that.

Brys didn't know the wine was poisoned, as he was too busy doing other things, like fighting Rhulad, to notice what was happening. And if he had a suspicion, the Errant was chilling around as well, and iirc it's implied he might have nudged Brys into drinking the wine.

Who was going to take care of Rhulad? Who knows? Someone would've been found. We never get to see that, so it's not really of any concern.

Not sure about Hannan Mosag there, my memory's a bit blurry there. Maybe because he still needed the warlock King, what with Hannan Mosag being the most powerful sorveror among the Edur?

The Guardian was the same Brys had met and fought in Mael's realm. He had been guarding the names of the forgotten gods whom Mael had stashed away ad which needed guarding after the Edur snatched away one of them by erasing its name. The point is, all that still keeps those old and fogotten gods alive is someone remembering their name, and they way mael had been handling it had become too risky, so Brys took on all the memories of their names. Because of that and also because Brys was just so awesome and had impressed teh guardian, the guardian came for him when Brys died.

The Crippled God resurrected the Tiste Andii woman to give Withal some company, in a rather sadistic kind of joke. She gets more pagetime later on.

Personally, Midnight Tides is my favourite book. The story and the characterization is very subtle and very well handled and all the hints that are needed are there.

This post has been edited by Puck: 01 May 2015 - 09:54 PM

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#5 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 12:57 AM

I think Puck answered all your questions If you need any more clarifications, just keep asking.
MT is a change from the MOI style. The dialogue/world building is where a lot of the greatness is and you have to read slowly for enjoyment.
In contrast MOI has a lot of action/world building
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#6 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 02:35 AM

Everything seems to have been answered, just my tiny thing:

Don't worry about not understanding MT first time. I didn't either. In fact I stopped reading, took a break then started again. It happens. But once you get it, this book is awesome.

As for the Toblakai gods, they were in fact a side story, but also a way for Iron Bars to show how awesome he is!
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#7 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 04:57 AM

View Postbockhorn, on 01 May 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

Hi guys

So I realize one of Erikson's trademarks is that one isn't supposed to understand everything that goes on in his books. However, I didn't really understand the STORY of this book. So many characters and events just felt... superflous? I feel I am not understanding the significance of many things that happened.


It is the third leg of the set-up. It was always going to be a bit of a shift. Just like the initial switch to 7 Cities after Genebackis in GoTM, it is a bit distracting. Where are the characters I know? DG at least had Fiddler and Kalam, here we have Trull, who we've met for a few pages in HoC. It is, however, necessary for the overarching theme and complete story.

Quote

First of all, what the hell was the deal with the toblakai gods? why were they even in this book? I have no idea what purpose they served other than being just a side-story (which, by the way, the whole book felt as, a side story that is)


Karsa is introduced in the 4th book. Karsa is... pretty bad-ass. Is he just ridiculously OP for a TTT or was this race something far different at one time? What sort of peoples were the Letherii able to overcome in their slow domination and destruction? These strand build a world and history that make Malazan what it is: breathtaking in scope. Also, the scene with Iron Bars and Ublala is fantastic. We see Iron Bars relative skill earlier, and we know Ublala is hard to kill, both struggle in the fight. Then, up pops Silchas Ruin and owns them. We have some stage setting going on here for the various characters.

Quote

The ending scene in the throne room felt very very confusing. I don't understand anything here basically. Why did Brys knowlingly drink the poisoned wine? who was going to take care of Rhulad? WHY didnt rhulad simply kill the warlock king when he was resurrected, his betrayal being all but obvious?


The others answered the first part earlier. As to the second question, Trull has been abandoned by his brothers, left to die. He turned his back on the ridiculous sorcery of the Holds before he marched into Lether and got slaughtered a couple of times before his family of warriors betrayed him. He needs power to rule and Hannan Mosag and his Krisnan have much power to lend that is granted by the Crippled God who would be none to pleased by a betrayal. They are now intertwined.

....

Quote

what purpose did the resurrected Tiste Andii that accompanied Withal, serve?


See above for partial answer. The book opens with the Andii and Edur battle against the K'chain and the death of Silchas Ruin by Scabandari's betrayal. It closes with his "resurrection" and murder-time fun. Stage-setting and thematic story-telling.

Quote

Can someone basically explain to me what actually happened in this book, please?

I really liked all the books so far, especialyl memories of ice lol, man, that is one of the most powerful books ive ever read. Im a grown man and I actually wept openly when I read that book. Midnight tides however was a huge disappointment... I think? Basically I WANT to like this book but since I didn't understand even half of it im having a very hard time doing that. The only parts I really liked was Trull, the relationship between udinaas and Rhulad and Fear's character arc.


I love MT. Favorite book in the series.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#8 User is offline   bockhorn 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 07:36 AM

Well, thanks for all the replies guys, nice to see such enthusiasm! I guess I understood some of the things you've pointed out but I just dont see the whole picture. Brys drinking the poison feels a bit contrived even with your explanation. Overall, I think the throne scene was quite poorly written because I really had a hard time following what was happening, who said/did what and the motives behind it. Ah well. I guess I will understand the book better if I read it a second time. Btw im not trying to bash this book or anything, I just felt that it was a noticeable step down from the books after GOTM at least. I really did like the kind of gloomy theme that the book had, and Trull is a very well written character I think, but yeah... ultimately I think the book was a bit confusing

speaking of confusion. I really appreciate this sense of mystery that Erikson is building by not explicitly explaining the metaphysics of his world. My impressions is that a lot of fantasy fails to convey this. Paradoxially, as a reader I think, at least initially, one doesn't want to know everything how the world works. I dunno if you guys have heard of R. Scott Bakker, another canadian author, but he also writes his books in a similar manner (and, I should add, quite better than Erikson, which is not surprising since Bakker is essentially an 'educated' author). Definately worth a read if you also appreciate this kind of epic, mysterious world building that is present in Erikson's works.
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#9 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 08:18 AM

Regarding the throne scene, have you by any chance read Hamlet?

As for Bakker look up Maark in this forum. Oh, and wear safety goggles
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#10 User is offline   BellaGrace 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 04:34 PM

I really hated MT for like 80% of the book. I thought it was a good story, I just felt hugely resentful towards SE that he was introducing 100% new material and I was so anxious to get back to the people I already knew. It was a really jarring change of pace, and I couldn't understand what any of it had to do with the story that was already developing.

I promise you that by the time you finish the series you will have a change of opinion about this book. You'll be able to see how everything fit. I suspect when I do my re-read this summer MT will be in my top 3 of the books. Several of my favorite characters are introduced in that book - Tehol, Bugg, Silchas. Although I won't like Udinaas and Feather Witch any better.
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#11 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 06:49 PM

View Postbockhorn, on 02 May 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Well, thanks for all the replies guys, nice to see such enthusiasm! I guess I understood some of the things you've pointed out but I just dont see the whole picture. Brys drinking the poison feels a bit contrived even with your explanation. Overall, I think the throne scene was quite poorly written because I really had a hard time following what was happening, who said/did what and the motives behind it. Ah well. I guess I will understand the book better if I read it a second time. Btw im not trying to bash this book or anything, I just felt that it was a noticeable step down from the books after GOTM at least. I really did like the kind of gloomy theme that the book had, and Trull is a very well written character I think, but yeah... ultimately I think the book was a bit confusing

speaking of confusion. I really appreciate this sense of mystery that Erikson is building by not explicitly explaining the metaphysics of his world. My impressions is that a lot of fantasy fails to convey this. Paradoxially, as a reader I think, at least initially, one doesn't want to know everything how the world works. I dunno if you guys have heard of R. Scott Bakker, another canadian author, but he also writes his books in a similar manner (and, I should add, quite better than Erikson, which is not surprising since Bakker is essentially an 'educated' author). Definately worth a read if you also appreciate this kind of epic, mysterious world building that is present in Erikson's works.


I'm going to exaggerate a bit for argument's sake, but this is basically what your post translates to for me:

Spoon-feeding readers is bad, the reader wants some degree of confusion. But Midnight Tides is confusing, so it's no good.

..What?

Also, I do wonder, what constitutes an 'educated' author? Erikson is a graduate of the Iowa Writer's Workshop, while Bakker studied literature. Which qualifies one more for being an 'educated' author? Studying the art or the history of something? Or maybe, possibly, one can infer that studying either also brings one into close aquiantance with the other, so ultimately it's down to each individual person what kinds of fruit it bears? And then again, can one only ever be a good author when one has done any of these things? Or maybe, just maybe, is it more important to have a feeling for cause and effect, insight into people and their actions, and other such things? I have not yet read Bakker, but I'd argue that studying this or that does not automatically a good author make.

I was going to share some more thoughts about how in Midnight Tides, Erikson not only finds his own voice, but also starts some of the literary experiments some people seem to dislike about the remainder of the series. Or about how Midnight Tides can be seen as a tragedy in the literary tradition (rather than, say, Memories of Ice, which is - with all the things that go down at the end - a tragedy in the commonly used sense of the word), which culminates in the ultimate pointlessness of Brys's death in the throne room (a character, who, though in and of himself a traditional hero character, through a perceived virtue that turned out to be a flaw, namely his loyalty to his king, dies an ultimately pointless death). That scene, though outwardly seemingly constructed, was asking to happen if one sees it from that point of view. Additionally, we are more conditioned through whatever popular media we tend to consume these days to acknowledge the MoI use of tragedy rather than the MT way to use it. Especially seeing as Brys's the brother of Tehol, who in this book is something like a center figure for a comedy act, and I don't see anybody complaining about hos that story arc was utterly contrived and set up. Is that bad? Hell, no. Why? Because it's a good, fun story, with great characters. So we have, in a sense, both of these aspects coming together in the throne room...

But then I let it stew for a few hours and had a nap and decided I might be barking up the wrong tree here, as 'I did not like that, it's confusing' is a stronger argument than whatever I can come up with. Some of the writing in Midnight Tides is so subtle, it took me several reads to appreciate it fully.

This post has been edited by Puck: 02 May 2015 - 08:30 PM

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#12 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 11:56 AM

Regarding the poisoned wine: I have always been a bit unsure about how to see the "Betrayed!"
I felt it could have been about the royals chosing suicide, denying the Tiste the chance to capture them alive. Then again, I always thought it was strange that Brys accepted a cup of wine when there were enemies to his king in close proximity - unless he took the cup knowing that it meant suicide - partly because that kept him undefeated (not that Brys would care about that, but the symbolism could be important), partly because it meant the end of his duty; what good is a Champion when the king is dead, and what fate would there be for Brys if he surrendered, or was captured?

Lether's armies were beaten, their royal family trapped with only Brys for protection. Thus, the poisoned wine made sense for everyone, even Brys. The royal family would be unconquered and wouldn't act as a puppet to the Tiste Edur, or suffer torment as their prisoners. Brys' defense of them was thus mostly symbolic, a demonstration of how the realm fought to the last man - but it had added weight as he more or less dealt with the Edur's own personal demon, on the Ceda's recommendation.

Hannan Mosag would have had everything to win by keeping Rhulad incapacitated, Rhulad's own brothers couldn't or wouldn't end his life, and there was a real chance that, if Rhulad remained incapacitated and the Crippled God's gift to the Edur thereby neutralized, the Tiste Edur could have lost their appetite for empire.
So, in time, the Edur might even have realised they couldn't hold on to Lether, or would be assimilated by it, but that would not be in the minutes after Brys hamstrung Rhulad.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 04 May 2015 - 11:57 AM

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#13 User is offline   Karven 

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 12:35 PM

View PostPuck, on 02 May 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:



I'm going to exaggerate a bit for argument's sake, but this is basically what your post translates to for me:

Spoon-feeding readers is bad, the reader wants some degree of confusion. But Midnight Tides is confusing, so it's no good.

..What?

Also, I do wonder, what constitutes an 'educated' author? Erikson is a graduate of the Iowa Writer's Workshop, while Bakker studied literature. Which qualifies one more for being an 'educated' author? Studying the art or the history of something? Or maybe, possibly, one can infer that studying either also brings one into close aquiantance with the other, so ultimately it's down to each individual person what kinds of fruit it bears? And then again, can one only ever be a good author when one has done any of these things? Or maybe, just maybe, is it more important to have a feeling for cause and effect, insight into people and their actions, and other such things? I have not yet read Bakker, but I'd argue that studying this or that does not automatically a good author make.

I was going to share some more thoughts about how in Midnight Tides, Erikson not only finds his own voice, but also starts some of the literary experiments some people seem to dislike about the remainder of the series. Or about how Midnight Tides can be seen as a tragedy in the literary tradition (rather than, say, Memories of Ice, which is - with all the things that go down at the end - a tragedy in the commonly used sense of the word), which culminates in the ultimate pointlessness of Brys's death in the throne room (a character, who, though in and of himself a traditional hero character, through a perceived virtue that turned out to be a flaw, namely his loyalty to his king, dies an ultimately pointless death). That scene, though outwardly seemingly constructed, was asking to happen if one sees it from that point of view. Additionally, we are more conditioned through whatever popular media we tend to consume these days to acknowledge the MoI use of tragedy rather than the MT way to use it. Especially seeing as Brys's the brother of Tehol, who in this book is something like a center figure for a comedy act, and I don't see anybody complaining about hos that story arc was utterly contrived and set up. Is that bad? Hell, no. Why? Because it's a good, fun story, with great characters. So we have, in a sense, both of these aspects coming together in the throne room...

But then I let it stew for a few hours and had a nap and decided I might be barking up the wrong tree here, as 'I did not like that, it's confusing' is a stronger argument than whatever I can come up with. Some of the writing in Midnight Tides is so subtle, it took me several reads to appreciate it fully.


I'm curious about your post – that part about MOI tragedy and MT tragedy. It's fascinating you've made the distinction between the two. I've been intrigued by how this series fits into ideas of tragedy, so your post caught my eye. Perhaps you could expand on that – it might be off-topic, but nevertheless could be a key to explaining MT's qualities.

I think that like how Andorian mentioned Hamlet, there was a Hamlet-like feel to aspects of the book, with a similar feel of tragedy. And there is the shared motif of a poisoned chalice used during a throne room showdown – and there was also that similar feel to both stories finales. (Hmm now who would Hamlet's equivalent be? Surely it's not Rhulad!)

I think that it's understandable that people find MT an odd piece in the series. Because it does break the flow – midway through the series and with entirely new characters and a new setting – madness!

What purpose were the Toblakai gods? I think that they say a lot about the world. They were representatives of the harsh nature of that continent's past. They were examples of why things like the Azath pop up in the first place. Plus considering the previous book had a central character who was a Toblakai, there is a reference here - or a comparison to be made.

This post has been edited by Karven: 04 May 2015 - 12:37 PM

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#14 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 01:50 PM

View PostTapper, on 04 May 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Regarding the poisoned wine: I have always been a bit unsure about how to see the "Betrayed!"
I felt it could have been about the royals chosing suicide, denying the Tiste the chance to capture them alive. Then again, I always thought it was strange that Brys accepted a cup of wine when there were enemies to his king in close proximity - unless he took the cup knowing that it meant suicide - partly because that kept him undefeated (not that Brys would care about that, but the symbolism could be important), partly because it meant the end of his duty; what good is a Champion when the king is dead, and what fate would there be for Brys if he surrendered, or was captured?

Lether's armies were beaten, their royal family trapped with only Brys for protection. Thus, the poisoned wine made sense for everyone, even Brys. The royal family would be unconquered and wouldn't act as a puppet to the Tiste Edur, or suffer torment as their prisoners. Brys' defense of them was thus mostly symbolic, a demonstration of how the realm fought to the last man - but it had added weight as he more or less dealt with the Edur's own personal demon, on the Ceda's recommendation.

Hannan Mosag would have had everything to win by keeping Rhulad incapacitated, Rhulad's own brothers couldn't or wouldn't end his life, and there was a real chance that, if Rhulad remained incapacitated and the Crippled God's gift to the Edur thereby neutralized, the Tiste Edur could have lost their appetite for empire.
So, in time, the Edur might even have realised they couldn't hold on to Lether, or would be assimilated by it, but that would not be in the minutes after Brys hamstrung Rhulad.


I absolutely agree that for Ezgara and Nifadas the poisoned wine was about royal suicide to defy the Tiste to the end and not let the King or his most important court member(s) end up as puppets or slaves of the Edur after being conquered.

But based upon Brys' words and reaction I think it is pretty apparent Brys did not know about the King's planned suicide:

Quote

The quizzical expression in the Champion's face deepened. Then he blinked, shook his head.

Quote

The swordsman sagged suddenly, and he threw a bloody hand out to the edge of the throne for balance. The sword, still in the other hand, wavered, then dipped until the point touched the floor. 'What- what-'


Brys did seem to have some sort of plan for taking the incapacitated Rhulad somewhere, even if the city was being overrun. Maybe they would retreat through secret passages to the southern parts of the empire and then start a reconquest:

Quote

'We will...take [Rhulad] somewhere. You will not find him, Edur.'



Nisall doesn't seem to have known about the suicide plan either:

Quote

The woman standing behind the throne was backing away, as if in sudden realization of something.



So, I think Hannan Mosag was right on both points - Brys just took the swig of wine to look cool (has a good psychological effect on any courageous Edur thinking of approaching to rescue the Emperor, too) and Ezgara didn't have confidence enough in Brys or the empire's abilities to defeat the Edur enough to even wait for the duel to finish before drinking the wine.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#15 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 11:38 PM

View PostKarven, on 04 May 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

I'm curious about your post – that part about MOI tragedy and MT tragedy. It's fascinating you've made the distinction between the two. I've been intrigued by how this series fits into ideas of tragedy, so your post caught my eye. Perhaps you could expand on that – it might be off-topic, but nevertheless could be a key to explaining MT's qualities.


I'm actually not sure either if this might be off-topic, and I might end up mostly rambling about some thoughts I had recently, so I'm going to put the whole thing in spoiler-tags, even though I do not intend to go past MT chronologically. If anyone disagrees with what I am blabbing on about in the following, rather long-ish post, feel free to point that out, I may end up going rather meta there. I just want to point out that some of the stuft is just me shooting into the blue :rolleyes:

And to anyone who finds random german words in there, I blame my tablet's autocorrect function.

Spoiler

This post has been edited by Puck: 04 May 2015 - 11:44 PM

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#16 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:46 AM

@ Puck, First of all, nice analysis! I don't have your literary expertise, but I liked the distinction you drew between tragedy and epic.

Secondly, I liked your analysis of the Sengar brothers. Rhulad's flaws were certainly the most explicit, and it was quite clear how the CG was playing on thme post-resurrection. Your point about Honour being a paralytic agent for Fear was well made. I remember wondering the first time why Fear was taking so much shit from Rhulad.

But I disagree with you about Brys. I don't think Brys played a role at odds with his position nor was he frozen into it through honour and pride. In fact to understand Brys I think we should look at him in the context of the three Beddict brothers.

Hull is the doomed one. He was sucked into the Letherii system, used, and spat out as a dried husk. His life has no meaning except redemption through revenge and even that is sulllied by the manner of Rhulads campaign, and eventually doomed.

Tehol is the opposite end of the spectrum. He knows the LEtherii system, he achieved the pinnacle of success within it and then he renounced it all. Over him the system no longer has any power. So he can actively conspire to bring it down , or simply live outside it.

Brys is in the middle. The virtues of his position have shielded him from the worst aspects of the Letherii system. Yet he lacks the intelligence and the insight to critique it properly. His horizons are narrow. Kings Champion. A decidedly martial role. But within that role, he is master. And it is here that he differs from Fear. Fear is paralyzed as the demands of honour and pride pull him in opposite directions. On the one hand, he owes loyalty to Rhulad. On the other there is Mayen's dishonour, and the savaging of the Tiste Edur honour code by Rhulad. He cannot make a decison either way and is thus paralysed. Brys however owes loyalty in only one direction and that is to his King. And he fulfills his role truimphantly. It is his sovereign who fails him by committing suicide before the duel was over. But in the context of Brys' personal honour, there is no stain, no reproach.
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#17 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 07:45 PM

Sorry, I meant to answer your post earlier, but last week was really busy and I either kept forgetting or was too tired.

I should've probably put the disclaimer on my above post that I don't really know much about anything and also am no good at putting into words what I'm trying to say, so I often end up rambling rather than putting things succinctly. Hence how I forgot I had meant to explain more why I counted Brys among the tragic heroes kind.

I agree with some of your assessments about the Beddict brothers. Actually, it's not that I disagree with the others, just that I was talking from a different point of view. In my earlier post I had been talking about tragedy and tragic heroes in the literary sense (yeah, yeah, I keep using that distinction), and in that regard Brys is the only Beddict brother who comes close. It's not that he's too prideful (as opposed to the Edur), it's just that he's so loyal that this virtue of loyalty turns into a flaw (as he doesn't deviate from it even though it would be the sensible thing to do) and thus leads to his death. He also starts the story from a high social position (being the King's Chapion is the highest he can reach as a soldier). As an aside, I'm not as good with the Letherii info as with the Edur stuff, but I don't think Brys lacks the intelligence to understand the trappings of the Letherii system. In fact, this is what Tehol has to say on the matter:

Quote

[Tehol Beddict] '[...] You chose the protection of the King's Guard, and now the role of Champion. Where debt will never find you. [...]'


Anyway, as I said, I was talking about literary concepts, and in that regard, a tragic hero is a generally 'good' person who sees his horizons narrow due to some innate, likely minor flaw that is an innate part of his character; bonus points if he starts the story in a high position of some kind. That flaw has to make it impossible for him to act differently in the crucial circumstances. In many if not most cases, that flaw is pride (as demonstrated plentiful by the Tiste Edur), but it can be any facet of a character's personality.

In this line of thought, Hull is not a tragic character. What happened to him was not of his own making, but the doing of an outside agency, in his case the Letherii royal house. What he went on to do was not for any kind of redemption (actually, I had to think about that, as Hull and redemption have not crossed my mind as belonging together until now, haha). He took things into hos own hands, and willingly threw out what had made him a good Sentinel in order to extract revenge. He narrowed his horizons himself while he did have other options. One could say his flaw was/is his naiveté, but eh, Seren clearly remarks in her narration how Hull's not 'the naive youth he had once been', so it's more a matter of inexperience rather than an innate character trait. The point is that too many other factors play into Hull's story. If anyone lacks some intelligence of the Beddict brothers, I'd say it's Hull. Again from Seren's point of view:

Quote

[...] She could sense him struggling with the multiplicity of layers of intent and design at work here. [...]


Also, I disagree that Hull's.. redemption is sullied by Rhulad's campaign. Hull brought it on himself in this case, and his failure was in understanding that the Edur were different from other tribes. He closed his eyes to that possibility and thought to use them. There's nothing virtuous in that. If anything, one could argue that Hull's biggest flaw is his lack of understanding/intelligence/putting things together, and as that's not a personality flaw but something else... Well, yeah. Hull says to Seren:

Quote

[...] 'You are right, I am not blind. I understand what it means to embrace destiny. What am I trying to tell you is, it is the best I can do.'


Basically, he is so deep into that whole Letherii doctrine of destiny, he can't see the forest for the trees.

But I reiterate, I am talking from a purely literary, dusty-as-Aristotle's-dead-ass standpoint. From the reader's point of view, Hull's story.. I don't know how to put it, I'm bad with words.. Let's say the emotions your post conveys are what I mean. You are correct in that to understand the dynamic of the Beddict brothers in their entirety, one has to look at them rather than compare Brys to the Sengars. Because their STORY is all about them, and the stories of this book are about the respective families involved. I just saw it as interresting to compare the Sengars as tragic figures to Brys, as he, through his story, is very different from them, but the underlying mechanics of storytelling CAN be compared. Overall, I actually think that it's not the best comparison. Brys stands on his own there as tragic hero, while the Sengars are all interconnected in the ways their tragic tale develops. Brys COULD have had the same storyline without his brothers (kind of, it's a possibility, depending on the circumstances), but the Sengars' storyline would've been impossible if not for the things I talked about in my earlier post. If that makes sense. Brys belongs to the Beddicts, and as I think I already mentioned, I have a feeling that with Tehol having his hands in everything concerning the Beddicts, we MIGHT be looking at a literary comedy there. However, that's a kind of plot I'm barely familiar with so i'd rather freshen up my memory about that before I make any further kind of statement, haha.

Anyway, I hope I managed to get the distinction I am making across. I'm not saying this is THE way to interpret MT, just that these are some things that struck me as familiar as I am interested in methods/theories/devices of storytelling. I am pretty sure SE could have incorporated things without making them explicit. My best friend is currently making her way through the MBotF and she's a huge mythology nerd and claims she can smell all kinds of mythological influences without being able to point out exact instances, just a general sense that SE knows what he's talking about. There's a interview somewhere wherein SE says he wrote the MBotF in part to make the reader experience the hero's journes. That's like a free card to go at it. I think there are more layers to these books than just the story OR the philosophy some people seem to dislike so much. I think SE also uses narrative devices that are not immediately noticeable and that do not have to be seen to enjoy the books, but that CAN enhance the enjoyment if one enjoys stumbling on them.

Or I may just be talking nonsense. I keep going back and forth about that.

This post has been edited by Puck: 11 May 2015 - 07:52 PM

Puck was not birthed, she was cleaved from a lava flow and shaped by a fierce god's hands. - [worry]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
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#18 User is offline   Nerevar 

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 01:39 PM

Regarding the shift in scenery and cast, I think the MBotF actually prepares you quite generously for that, or at least that's how I remember feeling. The entire first book of House of Chains is a self-contained origin story for Karsa. Not only is it gripping as a tale in its own right, but it enhances a character you've already (briefly) encountered and lays the groundwork for many important plotlines and thematics to come. All three things can also be said about Midnight Tides - it's just that this one goes the whole hog and spends an entire novel doing so, which I think is justified considering the importance of the location and events it deals with and sets up. My point is by the time I reached MT I felt like my expectations had been managed and I'd been given reasons to consider the sudden change in gear rewarding rather than daunting.

The way he mixed backstories into the fourth and fifth books while still moving the story forward ...it took balls to do and paid dividends.

This post has been edited by Nerevar: 21 July 2015 - 01:42 PM

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#19 User is offline   Disgruntled 

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 01:32 AM

If you're confused by MT, but are still motivated to continue the series, then a reread of MT would be worthwhile. You'll be OK for tBH, but RG will completely baffle you if you're not reasonably confident in your MT understanding.
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#20 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 06:03 AM

Just posting to say that I'm really impressed with Puck's analysis.
Laseen did nothing wrong.

I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
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