[Egwene]

Someone raised the following inconsistency on the Wiki. Any help with this would be very welcome.

Quote:Just finished MT and trying to make sense of the timeline regarding Trull. But what's currently here doesn't work. He can't have been shorn prior to the Seventh Closure. At the end of MT, at the time of the Seventh Closure, we see him leaving with Fear as a companion and still unshorn. Yet we know that Rhulad and others brothers (presumably real brothers, and thus Fear and Binadas) will be present when he is shorn. We do know that the shorning takes place in 1159 of Burn's sleep. I don't know what later books say about the date of the Seventh Closure in Malazan terms or about the sequence of events in Trull's life. Also unsure how long he'd been chained in the Nascent before he was released. That's what I was looking for, of course. But unless there's some time travel invovled, then the sequence here can't be right. And if there is that sort of time travel disruption, explaining it in the entry on Trull would be most welcome.

[Nevyn]

 Egwene, on 16 April 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Someone raised the following inconsistency on the Wiki. Any help with this would be very welcome.

Quote:Just finished MT and trying to make sense of the timeline regarding Trull. But what's currently here doesn't work. He can't have been shorn prior to the Seventh Closure. At the end of MT, at the time of the Seventh Closure, we see him leaving with Fear as a companion and still unshorn. Yet we know that Rhulad and others brothers (presumably real brothers, and thus Fear and Binadas) will be present when he is shorn. We do know that the shorning takes place in 1159 of Burn's sleep. I don't know what later books say about the date of the Seventh Closure in Malazan terms or about the sequence of events in Trull's life. Also unsure how long he'd been chained in the Nascent before he was released. That's what I was looking for, of course. But unless there's some time travel invovled, then the sequence here can't be right. And if there is that sort of time travel disruption, explaining it in the entry on Trull would be most welcome.

The timeline with Letherii stuff jumps somewhat, but not due to time travel.

Midnight Tides is backstory to set up a setting that the action is about to move to. So all the events of Midnight Tides happen before Trull is shorn. Presumably, at some point afterwards, the events of House of Chains happen, and then we are back on a normal timeline. Pretty sure Fear would not be there when he is shorn.

Tough to know exactly how far before MT is, but it is long enough ago that the conquering Edur are already sailing all over looking for the Shadow Throne as well as challengers to fight Rhulad. So could be years earlier.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 16 April 2015 - 04:57 PM

[Andorion]

Trull does not leave with Fear as the quote below shows. He decides to stay with Rhulad while Fear leaves.
Also I think brother should not be taken literally.

Quote

She looked then at Trull, and he saw her eyes hold on his for what seemed a long moment, slowly widening. ‘And you, Trull Sengar?’ she asked. ‘Are coming with us?’
With us. She will do this. Why? What need within her does this answer? The pressure in his chest constricted suddenly, even as the fateful words left him. ‘I cannot, Acquitor. I failed Rhulad this day. I must try ... again. I must try to save him.’
Something like resignation filled her eyes

Rhulad took a handful of Edur into his inner circle. Quite possibly those are the brothers referred to. Brothers not of the blood, but of the Spear.

Quote

‘Thank you, Fear,’ Rhulad said, ‘for your gift. I am assured of your loyalty, and proud to call you my brother. You, Binadas, Midik Buhn, Theradas Buhn, Hannan Mosag ... and,’ the gaze shifted, ‘Trull, of course. My closest brothers. We are bound by the blood of our ancestors ...’

Now I have always speculated that the tipping point which caused the shorning was what happened in the throne roo, Rhulad wanted his brothers to kill him, but they didn't. That probably constitutes a large scale betrayal. I am pretty sure that when Trull returns and Rhulad manages to get things coordinated the Shorning will happen.

[Egwene]

I too, thought that the term 'brothers' at the shorning was not meant literally. Do either of you have chapter and, if possible, page references which I could check out?

[Nevyn]

I think the prologue to House of Chains has all you need.

-Refers to the time not just by burns sleep but also "943rd day of the search" (start of prologue)
-At least 3 others there aside from Trull and Rhulad, so not literal brothers only.

Quote

"Is it just you who claims to have heard such betrayal spoken?"
"No, I heard it too brother"
"And I"

-Rhulad mentions forging an empire and the enemy kneeling before them, so Letheras is already taken over.
-It sounds from the conversation like Trull and others were on one of the ships that were part of the search, and encountered some Tiste Andii, and he spoke up against killing them.

So depending on how long it was between the conquering of the empire and the start of the search (and how many days in a Wu year), you are talking 2-3 years after midnight tides.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 16 April 2015 - 08:33 PM

[Puck]

Right, a disclaimer after I have typed all the following stuff down:

1. Some of the stuff is musing based on indications we get at various points, I do not claim to know for sure how things went.

2. Nah, I'm, like, totally not obsessed with Trull and the Edur in general. Just in case someone might've gotten the idea somewhere...

-----

I also think the Shorning happened some time after the end of MT, a couple of years maybe, because:

- one of the 'brothers' present at Trull's Shorning is Ahlrada Ahn, who is clearly not related to Trull by blood, but also not close enough to Rhulad to be a 'chosen brother' yet by the end of MT; some of Rhulad's favourite spit lickers turned brothers die during MT (Midik Buhn, for example), so replacements would have been needed and I can imagine Ahlrada worming his way in to be in a better position to spy on Rhulad, but I doubt that could've happened within a few days; I have no quotes at hand, but could find them if needed, the info is from tBH, Ahlrada's PoV before and during the Edur attack on the First Throne.

- by the time the Shorning happens, the search for champions who could fight Rhulad is already underway, and while Trull had obviously been walking a very thin line all the time, the final straw seems to have been him defending enemies they had encountered (the Tiste Andii on the Silandah?) and saying they were kin..

Quote

'Yet, even as you searched, this man, our once-brother, spoke against me.'
'He did.'
'Worse, he spoke to defend the new enemies we had found.'
'He did. He called them the Pure Kin, and said we should not kill them.'
'And, had they been in truth Pure Kin, then...'
'They would not have died so easily.'
'Thus.'
[HoC, Prologue]

..since no such thing happened pre the end of MT, we probably can safely assume that it happened in the time between the end of MT and the prologue of HoC, and thus offscreen, so to speak. Also, in the prologue of HoC they seem to have come from a ship, seeing as the Nascent is recently flooded.

- Trull disarming himself before Rhulad in the scene at the beginning of RG, which is a memory, happens immediately after Trull come back from escorting Fear to Seren's house, as he is still missing his sword (which he gave to Seren). So it would be logical to assume the Shorning happens shortly thereafter. However, there are too many indications to the contrary. I have come to believe that Trull throwing aside his weapons was a symbolic thing, Trull giving his life over to Rhulad in the vain hope that at some point he will be able to persuade the latter back to sanity. In fact, I think teh Shorning would have happened immediately after that had Trull not surrendered his weapons. But he did and hence was able to remain with the Edur for a while yet.

- Fear was not among the 'brothers' present in the Nascent, as by that point he was already travelling with Seren and Silchas and friends. Binadas might have been, though. After which he was sent by Tomad on the secret mission of getting Trull back. (As an aside, I love the tragedy of this.. just imagine how close Binadas was and what could have happened had not Karsa happened upon Binadas' ship...)

- there's the concurrent storyline of Fear, who travels with Seren and the others, and I am pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere in RG that they spend a couple of years travelling/hiding in the mountains. I would have to look for the exact number. What I'm getting at is that the two storylines converge again at the end of RG, and though we don't know how long exactly Trull spent in the company of Onrack and with the adventures they get up to (let it be a year or so, just guessing), the Shorning happening immediately after the end of MT would still rip a sizeable hole into the timeline of both storylines. However, if one takes into account the years Fear spends in the company of Seren and Silchas, while allowing Trull to still remain with the Edur for a while, things fall into place much more smoothly.

- there's an interesting bit about how much time has passed in HoC. In the prologue it seems like the cataclysms afflicting the Nascent after it had been flooded have just quieted down, which may be one reason Rhulad chose this place to chain Trull. There are still rotting bodies floating in the water 'n stuff.

Quote

The sea had been born of a river on another realm. A massive, wide and probably continent-spanning artery of fresh water, heavy with a plain's silts, the murky depths home to huge catfish and wagon-wheel-sized spiders, its shallows crowded with the crabs and carnivorous, rootless plants. The river had poured its torrential volume onto this vast, level landscape. Days, then weeks, then months.

Then, in Chapter Six, Onrack muses about the Nascent:

Quote

There had been no sunset in the realm the Tiste Edur called the Nascent for five months. The sky was grey, the light strangely hued and diffuse. There had been a flood, and then rains, and a world had been destroyed.

..so, I can't tell exactly, but it means that either it's been five months since the flood or five months since the storms caused by the flood stopped. Either way, it indicates that roughly five months have passed since the prologue, if one assumes that the prologue happens shortly after the end of the storms. Hence Trull spent roughtly five months chained in the Nascent. Which has probably been flooded by Rhulad when he stuck an alliance with demons from Lilac's home world and diverted a river from that realm into the Nascent.

So, for me, I'd put the timeline roughly like this:
- late in MT, Rhulad strikes an alliances with the demon lords of Lilac's home realm (too lazy to look up their name)
- Rhulad, with the help of the Crippled God, floods the Nascent (which was once a realm the Tiste Edur lived in, ironically)
- the river floods into the Nascent, which takes months, causing storms, plagues and other unpleasant cataclysms
- the rent closes, but the storms continue to rage for more months
- the storms calm down over an unknown period of time, but it's unlikely that it took several years, what with the rotting bodies 'n stuff
- Rhulad choses the Nascent as a good place to leave Trull to rot into oblivion
- Trull spends roughly five months chained in the Nascent, until Onrack finds and frees him

This is pretty vague, but the vague description of how much time passed during and since the flood allows for two to three years to have passed easily between the end of MT and HoC. Which coincides nicely with what I remember from RG.

I would be able to provide more precise quotes come the weekend if needed. I'm mostly working from memory here.

This post has been edited by Puck: 16 April 2015 - 09:41 PM

[Puck]

Actually, I reread the relevant scene in RG this morning and Rhulad does say Trull is to be shorn. So there goes my theory. That does not mean they did not spend some time sailing around and dragging Trull with them until the prologue of HoC. Nisall observes how it had to have cost Rhulad some, emotionally, to give the order, so he might have pretended it did not happen for a while afterwards until Trull got on his nerves again. Iirc, Rhulad also 'forgot' he had thrown his parents in prison.

Will have to look it up more closely when I get home today.

This post has been edited by Puck: 17 April 2015 - 11:46 AM

[Nevyn]

Gah, you're right.

Its this type of thing that makes me think the various easter egg hunts for cryptic hints on how characters tie together may be a waste of time. No doubt there are some characters and tie-ins Erikson always had in mind and wanted to reveal a bit at a time. But for every one of those there are likely 10 storylines he only knew the broad strokes of, and maintaining continuity at his pace is pretty tough.

I suppose we can explain it away, but to me that's just an oversight when filling in the story. SE just forgot he had suggested Trull was on the search before the shorning.

[D'rek]

IIRC, Rhulad floods the Nascent about two thirds of the way through MT, and additionally he mentions gathering champions to fight and also having a coterie of 'brothers' in MT when he is musing about his post-Lether-conquest plans.

So, I think everything lines up from a cause->effect perspective (unlike, say, the Dassem-Logros-Aren-Jaghut Odhan connections). But, the amounts of time depicted between various linked events do not all match up.

ie there are pretty straightforward indications that Trull goes straight to Rhulad right after the end of MT, and as Puck says the RG flashback then implies he was shorn more or else right away. Then Onrack finds Trull in the Nascent stating it has been about 5 months since the Nascent was flooded (and there is even some time between when Rhulad said he did the flooding in MT and the end of MT). Then Trull and Onrack have their adventures in HoC, wind up at the First Throne, and then eventually get back to Lether in RG - all of which as it is depicted within those plots themselves does not need to take any longer than a few more months, really.

Meanwhile, Fear and co. wander about upper Lether and match up with Trull and Onrack eventually. The amount of time there is fairly variable, though I would say the way it is written it sounds to me like no more than a year or so.

All of that does work out, in and of itself, and I have no problem with the Edur sending several fleets out within about half a year since conquering Lether, nor there being about a year between Tehol's appearances and plans in MT and RG, etc.

The one big glitch with it is the bit about Trull and the Pure Ones at his shorning.

It all tends to get messy though when you try to tie in the other plotlines. Karsa killing Binadas in the early HoC section, then being in Raraku for years, then eventually slaying Rhulad... likewise Paran being warned about Rhulad by the Throne of Shadow and the seeming synchronization of the Seventh Closure, the Path of Hands and the Wolves ascension to the Beast Hold, as well as many more things put MT in this weird state of being both around the same time as MoI and also 5 or so years before GotM (hence where ideas like Trull being on the wall for a loooong time or Fear and co. wandering about for years). Then the Barghast boats go back in time, the Andii revert from adults to teenagers and change parents, etc etc...

Mostly, these things work as self-contained plotlines, but stuff trying to tie in other plotlines tends to mess things up a bit.


(and all of that is completely ignoring chapter openers, of course)

[Puck]

 Nevyn, on 17 April 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Gah, you're right.

Its this type of thing that makes me think the various easter egg hunts for cryptic hints on how characters tie together may be a waste of time. No doubt there are some characters and tie-ins Erikson always had in mind and wanted to reveal a bit at a time. But for every one of those there are likely 10 storylines he only knew the broad strokes of, and maintaining continuity at his pace is pretty tough.

I suppose we can explain it away, but to me that's just an oversight when filling in the story. SE just forgot he had suggested Trull was on the search before the shorning.

Indeed. I'm now drawn to the thought that SE probably forgot that Trull was supposed to have accompanied the Edur fleet and so included Rhulad ordering Trull to be shorn (on the other hand, Rhulad did not accomplany the fleet, so how would he know if Trull talked too much, again? I guess we could agree on SE having intended for Trull to remain with the Edur for a while after the throne room incident). The thing is, if one takes away that one line, the events fall into place so neatly it's almost infuriating. If one includes it, it becomes a timeline clusterfuck. I think I might decide to ignore it out of existence and thus continue to live my life free of Trull-related timeline issues.

This post has been edited by Puck: 17 April 2015 - 04:05 PM

[Traveller]

Just to add, I'm reading Bonehunters at the moment, and I recently read a passage from Ahlrada Ahns (sp?) Pov - he's regretting what he helped do to Trull, at the shorning, as his 'brother'. So his literal brothers may not have been present.

[Egwene]

Thank you everyone. I have added a link on the timeline talk page to this discussion. Have also added the link to the Trull page. Hopefully, this will help the Wiki user who raised the issue