[nerds_feather]

Here's a lengthy interview with Steven Erikson--it covers topics from the Malazan series, whether Malazan is "grimdark" fantasy or not, the use f humor in Willful Child and more.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Interesting to find out more about Erikson's relationship with Cook's Black Company series.

[BellaGrace]

thanks for sharing that link.

[Andorion]

Ok... that is a really enlightening interview.

My favourite part: SE finally takes a shot at ASOIAF

Quote

Many epic Fantasy works drew on a social structure that was demonstrably Eurocentric in inspiration. Employing a kind of romanticised and privileged interpretation of that Medieval European world-set brought with it the assumption of patriarchy as a self-evident baseline of normality, not to mention all the other obvious tropes of dark-skinned hordes from the East, decadent (and still dark-skinned) civilizations to the South, blonde and blue-eyed barbarians to the North, and so on. It was a bag crammed full of assumptions, stereotypes, pre-packaged conflicts, an obsession with aristocracy, and virtues born of birthright. Alas, the modern revisitation of all those assumptions and stereotypes also happens to be the most popular Fantasy series by a long mile, and to that I can only shrug in bemusement.

[Okai]

Andorion, on 30 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Ok... that is a really enlightening interview.

My favourite part: SE finally takes a shot at ASOIAF

Quote

Many epic Fantasy works drew on a social structure that was demonstrably Eurocentric in inspiration. Employing a kind of romanticised and privileged interpretation of that Medieval European world-set brought with it the assumption of patriarchy as a self-evident baseline of normality, not to mention all the other obvious tropes of dark-skinned hordes from the East, decadent (and still dark-skinned) civilizations to the South, blonde and blue-eyed barbarians to the North, and so on. It was a bag crammed full of assumptions, stereotypes, pre-packaged conflicts, an obsession with aristocracy, and virtues born of birthright. Alas, the modern revisitation of all those assumptions and stereotypes also happens to be the most popular Fantasy series by a long mile, and to that I can only shrug in bemusement.

I really doubt he was taking a shot at A Song of Ice and Fire or any author in particular.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Andorion, on 30 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Ok... that is a really enlightening interview.

My favourite part: SE finally takes a shot at ASOIAF

Quote

Many epic Fantasy works drew on a social structure that was demonstrably Eurocentric in inspiration. Employing a kind of romanticised and privileged interpretation of that Medieval European world-set brought with it the assumption of patriarchy as a self-evident baseline of normality, not to mention all the other obvious tropes of dark-skinned hordes from the East, decadent (and still dark-skinned) civilizations to the South, blonde and blue-eyed barbarians to the North, and so on. It was a bag crammed full of assumptions, stereotypes, pre-packaged conflicts, an obsession with aristocracy, and virtues born of birthright. Alas, the modern revisitation of all those assumptions and stereotypes also happens to be the most popular Fantasy series by a long mile, and to that I can only shrug in bemusement.

Given he names the example "the most popular fantasy series by a long mile" I can't see how you can interpret that as a non-specific example. Although I did wonder between ASOIAF and Wheel of Time as to which one he meant - if we're assuming modern is too modern to include the likes of Tolkien and Vance.

Thanks for sharing the link - makes very interesting reading!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 30 March 2015 - 03:44 PM

[amphibian]

It is clear from the context he is talking about that he is not singling Martin out and is referring more to the general meta-game of fantasy writing, so to speak.

I've heard nothing but positivity from Erikson re: ASOIAF and the same from Martin re: Malazan.

I also don't think Martin falls into the trap of being exclusivist or otherizing the non-white people in his books, despite having Westeros being a pretty clear British isles analogy. Every group has its heroes and villains, women are significant even if not necessarily combat leaders and he shows considerable movement between geographical locations, as well as some level of social mobility (upwards and downwards).

[Andorion]

I would have thought the populairty reference made it pretty much unquestionable. At present in terms of popularity ASIAF is far and away the most popular.


I enjoyed his analysis of Grimdark and his reaction to Wilful Child a lot as well.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 30 March 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

I would have thought the populairty reference made it pretty much unquestionable. At present in terms of popularity ASIAF is far and away the most popular.


I enjoyed his analysis of Grimdark and his reaction to Wilful Child a lot as well.

It is somewhat ambiguous, but I do believe Erikson is speaking about white Eurocentrism in terms of looking back upon what massively popular fantasy series have been, rather than what Martin is presenting to the audience now.

I'm not a big GRRM devotee, but I don't believe he's being exclusionist in the way Erikson is talking about.

[nerds_feather]

Quote

Many epic Fantasy works drew on a social structure that was demonstrably Eurocentric in inspiration. Employing a kind of romanticised and privileged interpretation of that Medieval European world-set brought with it the assumption of patriarchy as a self-evident baseline of normality, not to mention all the other obvious tropes of dark-skinned hordes from the East, decadent (and still dark-skinned) civilizations to the South, blonde and blue-eyed barbarians to the North, and so on. It was a bag crammed full of assumptions, stereotypes, pre-packaged conflicts, an obsession with aristocracy, and virtues born of birthright. Alas, the modern revisitation of all those assumptions and stereotypes also happens to be the most popular Fantasy series by a long mile, and to that I can only shrug in bemusement.

To weigh in, I think both this *is* and *isn't* singling ASOIAF out. I think Erikson is talking about problematic tropes that are generally prevalent in epic fantasy and S&S, and he is definitely criticizing ASOIAF for "revisiting" rather than "moving past" reliance on those tropes.

At the same time, that observation in and of itself doesn't mean Erikson dislikes ASOIAF or thinks it's crap because of that. Thinking of myself here, I share this critique of Martin's reliance on these tropes, and find the whole "dark-skinned hordes/decadents" trope particularly problematic. Yet I also absolutely love all the things ASOIAF does well--depth of characterization, detail in world-building, and so forth. The first three books are among the maybe ten or fifteen best fantasy books I've ever read. So i think Erikson's critique of ASOIAF is pretty narrow here, even as it comes within a fairly broad criticism of epic/S&S generally.

At least, that's how I read things!

[worry]

Even in the most recent interviews where it's mentioned, Erikson has always maintained that he hasn't read ASOIAF except the first book many years ago, so while I think he's clearly pointing to it here, he's still just talking about it in terms of popular fantasy. As nerds_feather says, it's a critique of fantasy's self-limitation (creators and consumers both), as well as maybe tropes as assumptions...the delusional "historical accuracy" brigade being consistently wrong about actual history as well as fundamentally idiotic about what constitutes "accuracy" in fantasy worlds (here's on recent take on that: http://boingboing.ne...historical.html ).

[blackzoid]

Sounds like he is signling out ASOIAF to me anyway.