[BellaGrace]

Like pretty much everyone here, I think this series is amazing and I thought TCG was excellent. I think this is probably the only book series I've ever read where each book was excellent and the ending wasn't disappointing and almost all the loose ends got tied up.

However, I have a few comments about the series overall and also a few questions (I have read through several pages of this forum to try to find answers to some of this - sorry if they're frequently asked questions)....

Thoughts on TCG...
I was very disappointed in Icarium's story. I've seen several other threads where others felt this way too - and I don't mean I'm disappointed that he didn't go all "bad-ass-end-of-the-world-killing-everything". I'm just sad that a character that I really loved and cared about get any resolution. I think his storyline started falling apart a few books ago. Although I do think it's interesting that he's now saddled with Ublala (who I also adore) and now there's two childlike warriors walking around without any "adult" supervision


Also disappointed that Draconus' storyline really fizzled out. I realize he was warned off by ST and it's implied he might end up reconciling with MD (I don't really know the backstory there, but it was stated that Father Light was also back and she already had picked FL over Draconus).


Couple loose ends that bugged me (and I saw these discussed in other threads): What happened to Dassem's daughter - I would really have liked a resolution on that issue. Felisin younger and WJ's sister seemed to be storylines that just dropped - same with Silverfox. Also - Caladan Brood kind of fizzled out too - he was close with Rake and directly linked to Burn - it seems odd that he wouldn't be involved in the plan to free TCG and therefore save Burn.

I hated the snake storyline and didn't see the point - just to give Tavore's army one more day of willpower? I don't see why that would matter because if they couldn't go on for one more day Tavore would have been forced to use Mael's sword one day earlier... no big gain or loss. I realize the poem-girl killed one of the FA's but that certainly wasn't worth that long boring storyline through two books.

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QUESTIONS that I have not seen any answers to - some are just general series questions:

What happened to Scabandari when Kettle House failed? Sichas was freed when his Azath house fell - so logically Scabandari would also be free - or at least his soul?

Why did Hood come out of Dragnipur as an undead Jaghut? Everyone in there was dead and Draconus came out flesh and blood - why not Hood? I guess it's because Hood was already dead when he went in? But if we go with that idea - everyone else was dead too when they went in.

Why didn't Mother Dark help the Shake in the fight at the shore? I know there's all kinds of potential explanations and excuses for it - but it just didn't make sense to me.

Why aren't there more otataral weapons - the empire has been mining that stuff for a very long time - are we to assume they are mining it just so no one else can have it?

At one point in TCG the 7 T'lan Imass say that the entire House of Chains is present in Tavore's army except for Karsa - on the Malazan wikki it shows that Kallor is the Reaver of the HoC - but he isn't in the army. Is the wikki wrong?

What healed Kalam when he was wounded by the FA -something huge with a claw touched his chest - they Kalam said something about it was a demon that he talked to once- I dont remember what/who that might have been.

These might all fall into the category of being answered in the Kharkanas trilogy but...
Who made Silchas Hust sword?
Who the fuck is Edgewalker?
Was Sand raped? If so who is Korlat's father? (I've seen a lot of people say Draconus, but I don't buy that. Rake said he was an honorable man and Rake knew what had happened).
What was the secret between Rake and Tulas? (I've also seen speculation that Tulas is Korlat's father, but that doesn't fit for me either since Rake would have killed him right away and not made some kind of secret deal and then gone back and killed him)

[The Hust Legion]

i agree with icarium, i really wanted to see him go all out, as in world destroying all out, but i guess we had the FA to deal with. one problem at a time. with icarium i didnt really feel any attachment cause he wasn't really developed enough for me personally. your draconus point was very valid! he was built up to be a huuuuge badass and true he did just kill kilamandaros like she was nothing and sechul. but i was curious to see what he would have done had he directly entered the fray. i didnt mind brood being absent especially after what happened in toll the hounds. and i think if brood were there, if he though the FA were gonna win the hammer would have gone BOP. so broods presence might cause a headache for tavore,brys etc. with the snake again i agree with you to a certain extent, but i think they are there to remind the bone hunters about why they are fighting. i thought they were useless but upon reread theres one bit in TCG where, tavore gudd and a few others were talking with badelle and one other kid and the kids were given some twigs and rocks and they initially didnt realise they were toys. and the adults were horrified at such a thing ( that bit may be complete BS i have the memory of a goldfish). but yeah i think they were there to remind the BH why they were at war.


well the house was made using finest so all of his power and his soul if the house was gone so was his finnest. and he had no mortal body. so i guess he just kinda went poof? XD I'm not really sure.

hood was flesh and blood in TCG. so undead wasn't really the term i guess the undead thing reflected the state of Omtose phellack which was dead or dying. and with hoods return was in a way invigorated

i think mother dark settled in coral where the Tiste andii were. I'm guessing she moved back to kharkanas with them. but yeah i think she was with the tiste in coral.

idk about otataral. again my memory sucks but it seems like its hard to handle and forge into weapons. due to their rarity. i seem to remember reading something along those lines

with the kalam thing, yeah i have no fricking idea and it bugs me
with regards to the other questions only the hust sword has been answered the rest as far as i can tell remain a mystery

[Wolfdrop]

Just to chip in on Kalam's healing. It was the Enkar'al trapped in a TTT body from House of Chains. Tog and Fanderay made it the champion of the Beast Hold.

[BellaGrace]

The Hust Legion, on 25 January 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

well the house was made using finest so all of his power and his soul if the house was gone so was his finnest. and he had no mortal body. so i guess he just kinda went poof? XD I'm not really sure.

hood was flesh and blood in TCG. so undead wasn't really the term i guess the undead thing reflected the state of Omtose phellack which was dead or dying. and with hoods return was in a way invigorated

i think mother dark settled in coral where the Tiste andii were. I'm guessing she moved back to kharkanas with them. but yeah i think she was with the tiste in coral.

I guess I didn't realize that using a Scabandari's finnest to make the house meant he was destroyed. I thought I remembered Silchas regretting that Scab wasn't really destroyed but using him to create the Azath had been a good compromise.

Hood was described the entire TCG book as "desiccated", "pits for eyes", "yellowed tusks" etc (the same way he was pre-Dragnipur). At some point Felash said something about his eyes were developing pupils - so maybe he was slowly turning back to a real Jaghut - however - it says specifically (page 774 of the TOR normal-size paperback) that when Hood was climbing the ice towards the summit of the spire (around the time Bent bit him) that he was made into mortal flesh by the blood of a god.

I get the impression that MD is one of the most powerful gods of all...she might have been in Black Coral, but she knew what was happening in Kharkanas - she even spoke directly to Withal when he and Sand fist arrived there.

@Wolfdrop - thanks for the reminder about Kalam and the Enkar'al - I just vaguely remember that.

This post has been edited by BellaGrace: 25 January 2015 - 10:12 PM

[worry]

Hood's "real" (ie mortal) body was always on the Ice Throne, and that's the body he returned to. The one Rake beheads is a god/death-elemental-made-manifest body that is real enough, but metaphysical in nature.

[Soulcrusher]

I was under the impression that we would see more of the Felsin Younger storyline in Erikson's Karsa trilogy, I vaguely remember something written to the effect of "If Paran had known what would be born here, he may well have destroyed them" Or something along those lines.

I often wondered about the otataral weapons too, the same with Dassem's Daughter and Dunsparrow too. Did we ever get a name for His daughter?

I don't suppose anyone knows what happened to the Silanda? I loved that ship :/

[Lord of Hate]

Once again i can remember which book it was in but i remember someone saying they lace city walls with it to stop mages just busting the walls straight away, which i can see taking up a whole butt-load of ore to have it work

Other than that read all of the ICE books for a few more answers.

[Twisty]

BellaGrace, on 25 January 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Also disappointed that Draconus' storyline really fizzled out. I realize he was warned off by ST and it's implied he might end up reconciling with MD (I don't really know the backstory there, but it was stated that Father Light was also back and she already had picked FL over Draconus).

You've read it more recently than I, but I don't remember being told Father Light was back - do you have a page number or passage where this happened?

BellaGrace, on 25 January 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Couple loose ends that bugged me (and I saw these discussed in other threads): What happened to Dassem's daughter - I would really have liked a resolution on that issue. Felisin younger and WJ's sister seemed to be storylines that just dropped - same with Silverfox. Also - Caladan Brood kind of fizzled out too - he was close with Rake and directly linked to Burn - it seems odd that he wouldn't be involved in the plan to free TCG and therefore save Burn.

These are just my thoughts, but here goes:

Dassem thought his daughter was dead, as a result of Hood taking her (using her in the Chaining or something?), and began his whole revenge thing. It is tragic that one of the major characters of the series (one of 3 top men to forge the namesake Malazan empire, and he features heavily in both SE's and ICE's works) has his entire story arc based on something not quite true - his daughter is still alive. As for what happened - well, nothing needs to happen. There she sleeps - who's to say when or if she'll awaken?

I'd expect any post-MBotF novel featuring Seven Cities to feature Felisin Younger, continuing that arc. This in particular does feel like an unfinished story. As for Dunsparrow, she may show up - both her and Whiskeyjack are now heavily involved with Ascendants and gods, so something might happen. This isn't major enough to need a resolution though.

As for Brood and Silverfox, read ICE's later novels.

BellaGrace, on 25 January 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

I hated the snake storyline and didn't see the point - just to give Tavore's army one more day of willpower? I don't see why that would matter because if they couldn't go on for one more day Tavore would have been forced to use Mael's sword one day earlier... no big gain or loss. I realize the poem-girl killed one of the FA's but that certainly wasn't worth that long boring storyline through two books.

I didn't enjoy reading those parts until I realised their importance, but consider this: just as the Bonehunters needed reminding why they were fighting, we, the readers, needed reminding of Erikson's goal in this series. He has said many times (and it is clear in Tavore's overall arc) that compassion is his main theme. Given this, a story line involving the suffering of children is almost unsubtle in its intention to tug on the heartstrings.

BellaGrace, on 25 January 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

QUESTIONS that I have not seen any answers to - some are just general series questions:

Why did Hood come out of Dragnipur as an undead Jaghut? Everyone in there was dead and Draconus came out flesh and blood - why not Hood? I guess it's because Hood was already dead when he went in? But if we go with that idea - everyone else was dead too when they went in.

Why aren't there more otataral weapons - the empire has been mining that stuff for a very long time - are we to assume they are mining it just so no one else can have it?

At one point in TCG the 7 T'lan Imass say that the entire House of Chains is present in Tavore's army except for Karsa - on the Malazan wikki it shows that Kallor is the Reaver of the HoC - but he isn't in the army. Is the wikki wrong?

I think to become the god of death he may have had to die (he became god of death during the Jaghut war on death, in the lower levels of Hood's Paths where Hedge walks in HoC, if I remember even vaguely correctly) so he still looks dead? I never really questioned it - from GotM onwards, Hood seemed like a Grim Reaper figure, and the Grim Reaper is a corpse. It just fits.

I think the simple answer is yes, the empire is hoarding Otataral. If they made too many of these weapons, they would get around, making magery (a major strength of the Malazans, although less so during the time period we are exposed to, after the death of all those High Mages in GotM) a less useful tool.

I think the positions in the HoC changed frequently - I believe that one position (maybe King?) is held by Kallor, Karsa and Skinner at different points. It's kinda a murky thing, so just assume that by the time of TCG, Kallor has dropped his link to the CG and is doing something else (read ICE's books).

[Twisty]

Lord of Hate, on 26 January 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

Once again i can remember which book it was in but i remember someone saying they lace city walls with it to stop mages just busting the walls straight away, which i can see taking up a whole butt-load of ore to have it work

Other than that read all of the ICE books for a few more answers.

Yeah, in DG we are told the walls of Aren are impregnated with Otataral - pretty impressive stuff. But it would really only take a thin layer on the front and top of the wall (barely even a millimetre) to blunt all magic, so I think the lack of Otataral weapons is mainly down to hoarding.

[Ribald]

Twisty, on 26 January 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

Lord of Hate, on 26 January 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

Once again i can remember which book it was in but i remember someone saying they lace city walls with it to stop mages just busting the walls straight away, which i can see taking up a whole butt-load of ore to have it work

Other than that read all of the ICE books for a few more answers.

Yeah, in DG we are told the walls of Aren are impregnated with Otataral - pretty impressive stuff. But it would really only take a thin layer on the front and top of the wall (barely even a millimetre) to blunt all magic, so I think the lack of Otataral weapons is mainly down to hoarding.

When was the last time a quantity surveyor or builder ever said 'yeah, you only really need a little of this'? More than likely the builder said 'Welllllll you could go with a millimetre thick layer..... butttttt I couldn't say that would be enough. If you want to be on the safe side you need a load of the stuff. And I can do you a great price'.

So if you factor in a thick layer of Otataral, or even bricks made of the stuff, over the entire facade of the wall, that actually adds up to a huge amount of material. Especially if they have a store with replacement otataral to repair cracks or eroded sections.'

Recently there has been a bout of cold weather here and I am amazed at the sheer volume of grit and salt that goes on even a small driveway on a daily basis. So scale that up to a permanent coating that has to stand up against the weather as well as wear and tear of people walking along the top of it, dropping things on it and so on, and you have a huge amount of material that is used and replaced on a regular basis. And that doesn't even take into account ships sinking or being pirated, caravans being raided, warehouses being looted, unscrupulous individuals 'diverting' part of shipments, wastage in mining it, wastage in processing it, wastage in applying it.

[BellaGrace]

Twisty, on 26 January 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

You've read it more recently than I, but I don't remember being told Father Light was back - do you have a page number or passage where this happened?

Can't give you a page number, but there was a section in either TTH or DoD where it was stated that FL was a mirror to MD - that they were eternally tied together and that when she turned away from her children FL had to turn away from the Liosans too (even though he didn't want to) and it said that now that MD was returned so too was FL.

Twisty, on 26 January 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

I didn't enjoy reading those parts until I realised their importance, but consider this: just as the Bonehunters needed reminding why they were fighting, we, the readers, needed reminding of Erikson's goal in this series. He has said many times (and it is clear in Tavore's overall arc) that compassion is his main theme. Given this, a story line involving the suffering of children is almost unsubtle in its intention to tug on the heartstrings.

I just didn't find that story line to be moving or sad at all. It was so annoying and long. One of my most hated storylines along with Red Mask (which I still think could have been 100% cut out of the series and nothing would have been lost) and the Mhybe.

Twisty, on 26 January 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think the positions in the HoC changed frequently - I believe that one position (maybe King?) is held by Kallor, Karsa and Skinner at different points. It's kinda a murky thing, so just assume that by the time of TCG, Kallor has dropped his link to the CG and is doing something else (read ICE's books).

The Malazan Wikkis shows Kallor and Rhulad as previous kings. There's another thread on this site that also has someone naming Kallor as Reaver. Maybe that's something from the ICE books (I've only read KoN and TCG)? It's probably just a mistake by SE when the 7 T'lan Imas say all the House is in Tavore's army.

Ribald, on 26 January 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

So if you factor in a thick layer of Otataral, or even bricks made of the stuff, over the entire facade of the wall, that actually adds up to a huge amount of material. Especially if they have a store with replacement otataral to repair cracks or eroded sections.'

Recently there has been a bout of cold weather here and I am amazed at the sheer volume of grit and salt that goes on even a small driveway on a daily basis. So scale that up to a permanent coating that has to stand up against the weather as well as wear and tear of people walking along the top of it, dropping things on it and so on, and you have a huge amount of material that is used and replaced on a regular basis. And that doesn't even take into account ships sinking or being pirated, caravans being raided, warehouses being looted, unscrupulous individuals 'diverting' part of shipments, wastage in mining it, wastage in processing it, wastage in applying it.

I agree that all this makes sense about the use of Otataral - it still doesn't explain the weird lack of weapons with it though.

[Fiddler]

The lack of Otataral weapons is mainly due to how hard the substance is to put into a weapon form that'll actually work as a weapon. Sandalaths' husband the Meckros Blacksmith talks about it at one point in Toll The Hounds I think, but it's been a long time.

I want to say Lorn also makes reference to the sword she has being unique due to it's being forged out of Otataral and some property of Otataral that makes it more or less crumble when made into a weapon.

[worry]

Also it would be poisonously self-defeating to distribute otataral weapons to an army that relies so much on mages. Not just combat-wise, but denul healers as well would be flushed out.

[BellaGrace]

worry, on 26 January 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

Also it would be poisonously self-defeating to distribute otataral weapons to an army that relies so much on mages. Not just combat-wise, but denul healers as well would be flushed out.

well I didn't mean everyone - but it seems like the High Fist might have one.

Also - along the lines of your argument - same could be said for putting otataral in city walls.

[Abyss]

BellaGrace, on 26 January 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

...

Also - along the lines of your argument - same could be said for putting otataral in city walls.

I forget which city this was... something in 7C or am i making that up in my head?.... i'd assume a city that does this has (or had way back when) more to fear from mages outside than inside.


But the point seems to be that otataral is notoriously difficult to mine, difficult to shape, and has all kinds of unpredictable side effects not all of which are obvious or even generally known.

[worry]

I don't think they are along the same lines. City walls use otataral as a force field against invasive sorcery. It's a border. It's not like every mage within the city gets nullified. In close quarters though, an army wants its mages to function. Combatants carrying otataral weapons will nullify their own squad mates. Lone actors might make the tradeoff (as Kalam does when he buys those knives), but army-wide it's apparently not a worthwhile trade.

[Lord of Hate]

The way i thought it would work would be the center of the wall would be otatoral so that the field of magic nullification only extended through out the wall structure not outside of it, that way you could field a cadre of mages on the wall top without out losing their effectiveness, this would require much more otatoral than the other ideas but would be a way that it defintlely would work. In GotM Lorn mentions that she has to constantly sharpen the sword, to keep it effective as a weapon, as the otatoral cannot hold an edge at all.

[Ribald]

I never understood why you make weapons out of otataral given that its magic deadening properties were the things that you were after. A broach, necklace, pendant, ring etc would all be useful and easy to carry and maintain, and they would give you magic protection while you stick your sword in the mage attacking you... plus they could be removed so that a healer could get to you and fix you up.

But ultimately I think the expense of the whole operation, tied to the exclusivity of the operation that limits otataral in the world.

However, if that became common practice, mages would adapt and start using their magic in non-direct ways... augmenting trebuchets and catapults from further away so that the massive stone does the damage, not the magic, the magic simply boosts the range and stops the siege engine breaking apart. Firing bushels of stones high above a city so that they rain down, or caltrops over a battle field to stop cavalry and break up infantry formations.

I am sure the mage cadres would think of something to adapt to widespread otataral use. That is the evolution of an arms race.

[Gorefest]

Ribald, on 28 January 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I never understood why you make weapons out of otataral given that its magic deadening properties were the things that you were after. A broach, necklace, pendant, ring etc would all be useful and easy to carry and maintain, and they would give you magic protection while you stick your sword in the mage attacking you... plus they could be removed so that a healer could get to you and fix you up.

All those items though would provide long term exposure to your skin, which could be problematic. But I share your basic sentiment. They could make any kind of portable object, carried around in a bag and handled with gloves, a lump of otataral would do. Which is precisely why there are so few otataral weapons. It is pointless other than as a status symbol, any kind of hardened material would be better suited for actual combat than otataral.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 28 January 2015 - 09:28 AM