[zoser55]

Just started reading this forum - but from a cursory scroll through of topics & comments haven't seen anyone address this.

Did we just witness the Ascendancy of Tavore, Hedge, Fiddler, Banaschar, Lorasta Yil (pls forgive spellings), etc.

Hedge I guess already did by virtue of being a BridgeBurner & being brought back;
But the rest of the characters that fill and take over the various positions in the House of Chains - what they accomplished is the definition of legendary and rites for ascending.

I've read so many comments everywhere complaining that SE doesn't ever explain exactly what it means nor how does one Ascend or become a god - but that fits exactly with his style "I don't plan on explaining a damn thing!" He shows does not tell. And we just "witnessed".

That being said I also felt there was something of an interesting parallelism between the Elder Gods / new godlings such as ST/Cot / and Tavore's Bonehunters.

Elder Gods so ancient and powerful can just make things happen - Errantas stands out most predominantly in my mind here - his famous way of doing things - Nudge. What the hell does that exactly mean?!? How does he do it etc - but things happen when he wants.

ShadowThrone & Cottilion newly empowered gods have their powers from before and whatever else they have gained by Warren of Shadow - but still rely on accomplishing their desires by scheming, medelling, and coercing humans to do what they want.

Tavore led and she led by the most human/humane ways possible. There was no mystical spell she cast over those around her - as QB & Kalam disuccessed- she reached out to the best of people (as opposed to Laseen reaching out to the worst) and inspirited those to follow her. She built up quite the following.

In my mind i feel as we witnessed her and those around her who fill in the House Of Chains Ascend.

[Twisty]

I've never considered this. And I really like the theory. That said, I don't believe they ascended.

A) Whenever someone's close to ascension, others notice, like with Gesler and Stormy - those with power noticed. At the end of TCG there were plenty of powerful beings hanging around - if Tavore and co had ascended there might've been a snippet somewhere? Although knowing Erikson probably not!

Ganoes Paran managed to ascend (sort of) in a seemingly unique way - he still has his human traits and functions as a human, uses magic sparingly and uses weapons in the normal way, while being gifted with knowledge and (presumably) the tough skin of Ascendants (being hard to kill). But all this is as a result of being Master of the Deck, not just any old Ascendant.

C) There's a focus by SE on the human-ness of the Bonehunters, as you've noted. I think to have them ascend would lessen this. Fiddler's ending is poignant because he grows old and will die (before ascending!). Tavore will stay human and continue to silently impress people (gathering followers for a successful return to the Empire to become Empress! Or so the theory goes). It is her human compassion - which Ascendants lose e.g. Cotillion realises this after possessing too many women (TCG convo with Minala I believe) - that makes her who she is; if she ascended this would be made irrelevant. Overall I feel this was a triumph of short-lived, flawed and weak beings over forces who had overwhelming power, because Tavore managed to pull out the best of them.

D) Perhaps they were gifted with certain Ascendant powers or protection or what have you towards the end, but now with the CG gone, is the House of Chains relevant? I like to think the House dedicated to suffering would always be relevant, but its god is gone, Kallor and Karsa have essentially walked away from their roles, the Unbound are gone, and like I said the human roles of the BHs don't lead to ascension. Maybe the House disappears, making way for those who had flocked to it to join a new rising power, which could become a House or part of one - Salvation (from the Bonehunters book, remember? Felisin Younger!)

[zoser55]

Wow - amazing answer - thank you.

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Tavore will stay human and continue to silently impress people (gathering followers for a successful return to the Empire to become Empress! Or so the theory goes).

Never seen this one - is this hinted outside the 10 book series or just people speculation?


Otherwise - everything you say makes perfect sense.

[Abyss]

It's an interesting theory. I mostly agree with Twisty in the sense that we did not witness the ascension of Tavore and co from human to ascendant. That said, it's reasonable to say we saw them all take a step along the path that could, eventually, for some of them, maybe, end in actual ascension.

The Deck reading in DoD that aspects some of the Bonehunters and friends isn't an indicator that they have taken places in the Pantheon, rather, it's showing that they have roles to play most associated with the House of Chains' aspect... that being the CG's breaking, bondage and possible release and redemption despite the flaws of everyone involved.

Just having 'powers' in and of itself isn't ascension... it can be, but not as a matter of course or else every mage and shapeshifter would be an ascendent and we know that's not the case. There are also degrees... Fiddler, despite everything he's been through... his visions and natural talent with the Deck, Raraku twice, Tremolor, the Bridgeburner's ascension, the Tanno song, YGhatan, Beak's white light and the near worship of the Bonehunter army... has never shown any hint of ascension. Likely he'll join the Bridgeburners as Guardians of Death when he dies, but even at the end of TCG he seems to be baseline human.

Tavore has been aspected by otataral and apprently was the lover of a timetravelling Eres witch, but aside from healing and spell resistance, she's otherwise human.

Lostara hosted Cotillion's power twice and worked as his agent, but none of the power was actually hers.

Banaschar is essentially D'rek's avatar, but that's more likely to kill him than ascend him.

Hedge returned from the frikkin dead, but seems to have returned to baseline human (for Hedge, anyways).

....point being these are all exceptional people, but as of the end of TCG, still people.

Stormy and Gesler were repeatedly referred to as resisting ascension and fighting to hold onto their humanity despite the power they were aspected to. They were actually refusing to ascend by sheer willpower, so even when events seem to go that direction, it's not necessarily the end result.

[Andorion]

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Stormy and Gesler were repeatedly referred to as resisting ascension and fighting to hold onto their humanity despite the power they were aspected to. They were actually refusing to ascend by sheer willpower,

...which is actually way more awesome than your usual bread-and-butter ascendant if you stop and think about it.

[Twisty]

zoser55, on 03 December 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

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Tavore will stay human and continue to silently impress people (gathering followers for a successful return to the Empire to become Empress! Or so the theory goes).

Never seen this one - is this hinted outside the 10 book series or just people speculation?

I think this is just some theory I've seen on the forums. It's a nice one though! Hopefully we'll find out what happens Empire-wise and for Tavore and co with Erikson's Toblakai trilogy.

[Soulcrusher]

Did Paran royally screw up when he sanctioned the house of chains? It didn't seem to stop the crippled god being confined "to the rules in the game"?

[worry]

It wasn't meant to stop him.