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Current State of the Empire SPECULATION AND SPOILERS!

#1 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 03:06 PM

SPOILERS FOR ALL BOOKS

Got in a debate over on r/Malazan about what the current state of the Malazan Empire is. The last we heard of it in any meaningful sense was, well in some respects ROTCG. I guess in some ways you could say that TTH and OST mention things but we haven't seen what is going on "back home" if you like for a while. I just thought it would be interesting to speculate what is going on.

In this thread, where the argument started, I said that actually, despite all things, I thought the Empire was not in too bad a state. Most major enemies have gone and a lot of the internal dudes whipping up a frenzy are dead or subdued. I know that this will most likely be covered when the Toblakai trilogy comes out, but I would welcome all thoughts and ideas.

My initial reply for all those too lazy to click the link:

Quote

I imagine the Toblakai trilogy will go further into Genebackis at least and likely a bunch of other continents.

Having said that, here we go with spoilers from everything that has been written so far. Please bear in mind that I am mostly doing this from memory and it's been a while since I read them all. Feel free to correct me:

I think Korel is done with. One of aims of the campaign was to get rid of the Lady and that was achieved. With the Mare fleet mostly destroyed or at least severely depleted by the blue Moranth, keeping in touch with the Empire will be a lot easier.

Seven Cities won't be a major problem now - they destroyed the Whirlwind army & the plague having sucked the life out of the rest of the continent I doubt it will cause issues for a long time now.

As for Jacuruku and Assail I don't think there is an official Empire presence there, at least not a major one at the moment. However there are representatives around which means they have an interest in those two continents. (I don't remember a lot of Blood and Bone so I might be wrong about that. Any correction welcome.)

Return of the Crimson Guard shows that they have subjugated the main rebellious elements of the people on Quon Tali. Assail - all of ICEs books after Stonewielder - shows that the Crimson Guard are now no longer interested in their perpetual war against the Empire so that is no longer a primary concern for the Emperor.

What I imagine he is mostly focused on now is Lether. It is a flipping big place and they now have a stable economy and a popular leader. Will that mean anything to Mallick Rel? Will he start thinking about expansion & conquest? I personally don't think so. A lot of the places the Empire conquered were horrible places and there is a consensus that actually, the Empire was a good thing. Lether is now not like that. Taking over would be a lot harder and the locals even more resistant than the likes of Genebackis and Seven Cities.

All in all the Empire is not in a bad state. I hate to admit it because I despise him, but actually Mallick Rel isn't that bad as an Emperor. I seriously can't wait for the Toblakai Trilogy. That should give us an insight into what has happened since, well Bonehunters and Return of the Crimson Guard/Stonewielder.

Tl;dr read the flipping thing it took me long enough to write on my phone...

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 26 November 2014 - 03:07 PM

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#2 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 03:47 PM

Regarding the Malazan - Lether future relationship, it might be worth to note as well that of course Mallick Rel is a (former?) priest of Mael.
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#3 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 04:52 PM

View PostGorefest, on 26 November 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Regarding the Malazan - Lether future relationship, it might be worth to note as well that of course Mallick Rel is a (former?) priest of Mael.

Goodness me that never occurred. Oh yeah. That may either cause issues or actually help both the Empires. My theory is that Bugg won't be too happy with the way Mallick has abused his power etc.
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#4 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 05:05 PM

I agree that the Empire has got the emperor that it needs right now. Mallick may be ruthless son of a bitch but a medieval empire needs a ruler like that to remain strong. It doesn't hurt that the man is both crafty and sneaky.
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#5 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 05:39 PM

The Letheri empire is on the opposite side of the world, anyways.

I think with Dryjhna dead, Rake dead and Moon's Spawn sunk, the Stormriders somewhat appeased, The Lady destroyed, Ryllandaras defeated, the Crippled God killed/released, etc, most of the Ascendant/Godly/supermagical threats the Empire has been facing are pretty much gone for the moment.

Likewise, the old mortal threats to Laseen - the Old Guard, the Crimson Guard, the Seven Cities fanatics, the Genebackan Free Cities, the Marese, are mostly dealt with now, too.

The Empire still has some armies, but not as many or as capable ones as the famous legions of before. They have mages, but not the centuries-old infamous wizards of the Old Guard like Tayschrenn, Nightchill, A'Karonys, etc.

I see the next period of the Empire as one of a bit more mundanity than what came before - things settling down and being a bit more 'normal', with fewer magical assaults, fewer giant military conquest campaigns, and fewer big names making legends for themselves. A time for the Empire to rebuild its internal infrastructure, solidify its hold on its existing lands, and prosper.

...

Or maybe millions of soldiers and ships from the Nemil Empire sweep past the Jhag Odhan into plague-weakened Seven Cities. The Empire cannot move its armies from Fist and Genebackis fast enough, and Seven Cities soon falls. Aren holds out for 3 years, but bit by bit the Nemil fleets make their way from Yath Alban around to the south side of Seven Cities, conquering everything along the coast as they go while the land armies take over everything in between. The walls of Aren do nothing to stop the Nemil fleet from blockading the whole city, and eventually the High Fist is thrown from the great walls by a desperate, starving populace.

From there the Nemil conquerors turn to Falar and Quon Tali. There they fight the hardened armies of the Empire, recalled from Fist and Genebackis, but eventually Quon Tali falls, too. Mallick and the high council flee to Genebackis, and establish an Empire-in-exile government there, waiting for an opportunity to strike back.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#6 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 06:28 PM

Condition of the Empire, lets see:

1. Economy: In the Bonehunters, Laseen told Tavore that the Plague had been catastrophic to the Empire in the way it had hit Seven Cities, taken out the economy, specially the harvests. As we know the plague was devastating. Taking a real-world analogue, if it was anything as nasty as the Black Death in Europe in the 14th century, that would cause not just an economic recession, but also cause major socio-economic changes. Right after this we get RotCG, which is a huge civil war, where again more damge is caused especailly ot the Imperial capital of Unta. So economically the Empire needs to recover. I suspect Genebackis, and especially Darujhistan would be crucial regarding this.

2. Politically the Empire is stable, with internal dissension wiped out, and Mallik Rel has proven himself a master conspirator and intriguer. Of course his control over the Claw would determine a lot and after Apsalar in the Bonehunters, the Claw leaves a bit to be desired. But they possibly have Topper back which is good.

3. Militarily the situation is not so good. There are now no more old, experienced stalwart commanders left, with the exception of Admiral Nok. If I remember correctly, The Empire has two armies worth the name: the victorious one on Fist, sent under Greymane, now bereft of their commander, and whatever Mallik had to hand on Quon Tali after RotCG. The Genebackis armies are useless, as we saw in OST. A lot, and I mean a lot, will depend on whether the Moranth renew their alliance, post-OST due to Dassem being alive. The Moranth are a huge force to be reckoned with.

4. Magically the situation is worse. No High Mage, no terrifying cadre. Of course large-scale magical adversaries are scarce.

5. Foreign policy: This is very complicated. Lets start by looking at the areas where Malazans have interests
a. Seven Cities: This is done. I dont see a credible threat in the next generation or so.
b. Korel: I agree the Malazan interest in this area is done. They may make good trafing partners though.
c. Genebackis: Far more difficult to say. They hold the North, but not the extreme North where Toblakai may still roam. Darujhistan and its neighbourhood remains independent. The Moranth alliance will be very instrumental here. But I dont see the city falling easily. The Eel reins here after all, and we still do not know exactly what the hell Kruppe is. Then we have the deserted areas created by the Pannion Domin, then the extreme south. This area is potentially very dangerous. Any area that spawned the Grey Blades/helms(forgotten) should be watched.
d. Jacuruku: The dry part of the continent is ripe for conquest and frankly Malazans shouldn't have too much difficulty. Himatan is another kettle of fish entirely. I think it could digest any army.
e. Assail: I think the consensus in the Assail thread was that a good Malazan army could conquer this place. But I maintain you would have to be nuts to attack a place with resident Jaghut and FA, especailly if you are magically depleted.

f. Lether: This is very interesting. You have a large Empire, populous, rich and now, stable. You have armies trained in Malazan tactics and strategy. You have powerful mages. Thanks to Hedge you have rudimentary munitions. You have a machiavellian ruler like Tehol, who is probably better at intrigue than Malik and also the freaking Elder God. Also Brys Beddict. Clearly the chief rival.

g. Wildcards: Shal Morzim. Who knows what this bunch of insanely powerful mages could do. Also that area Tavore and the Perish had to magically bypass because they were too powerful.

6. Big long-term threat: Global warming. No really. The Jaghut ice is melting. Sea levels are rising. Korel, Malaz Island, the Falari isles, maybe even Otatoral island are in danger.
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#7 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 06:43 PM

Forgot to add:

Remaining Ascendant threats:

1. Caladan Brood: Still there, still going strong, but seems to be mellowing out a bit.
2. Silchas Ruin: He may go to Kharkanas. Or he may not. He may decide on a sightseeing tour.
3. Spite and Envy: Still out there, still causing mayhem.
4. Icarium: He maybe on Lether, but he does get around. And if something sets him off, and Ublala is distracted by a chicken....
5. Traveller: He may have retired with the Seguleh, but he is still there, and as long as he is there, he is a threat.
6. Ammanas and Cotillion: What are they planning? What are they doing? I dont see how Mallik can defend himself from them.
7. Draconus: The original Big Daddy. We dont where he is, what he is doing. He can level continents, he carries eternal night in his hand. Any sane Emperor would be terrified of him.
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#8 User is offline   D'iversify 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 08:03 PM

View PostAndorion, on 26 November 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

g. Wildcards: Shal Morzim. Who knows what this bunch of insanely powerful mages could do. Also that area Tavore and the Perish had to magically bypass because they were too powerful.
Big wildcard I agree. It may turn out that their bark is worse than their bite given that its been ruled by the same triumvirate for decades if not centuries and they may have become complacent or lost the plot. On the other hand, if they are hardened semi-ascendants and sense a threat from the Empire, things could well get ugly fast.

D'rek, any signs you see that Nemil actually could threaten the Malazans (aside from the weakness if the empire's position in 7C) or is this more a hypothetical shot in the air argument for where a new threat could come from?

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 26 November 2014 - 09:17 PM

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#9 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:44 PM

If it means anything, on the Tor reread finale Q&A someone asked about Mallick Rel and SE commented Rel "isn't half bad" as an emperor, and he is still there during TCG's epilogue with Fiddler.
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Posted 27 November 2014 - 08:24 AM

View Postworry, on 26 November 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

If it means anything, on the Tor reread finale Q&A someone asked about Mallick Rel and SE commented Rel "isn't half bad" as an emperor, and he is still there during TCG's epilogue with Fiddler.
How long post-CG mainevents would we place the epilogue do you think?
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#11 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 08:50 AM

In the same answer (to question #42: http://www.tor.com/b...led-god-q-and-a ) he says it's been about a year.
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#12 User is offline   theocean 

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 01:21 AM

The rise of Karsa is the biggest threat to any empire. The best fight left would be him vs the new leader of the seguleh. I would've loved to have seen what happened if the bone hunters challenged him at the end of HOC.
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#13 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM

The biggest hint of what might be in store is in the dialogue between Jute and Giana Jalaz (Assail, Chapter 14, p.497)

Jute is concerned that Mallick will impose a Jhistal type reign on the Empire. From the way Mallick behaved, I think that that is quite a likely outcome. With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom. Mallick stands for those countries that supress and rule by keeping their populations under tight supervision.
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#14 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 11:34 AM

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

The biggest hint of what might be in store is in the dialogue between Jute and Giana Jalaz (Assail, Chapter 14, p.497)

Jute is concerned that Mallick will impose a Jhistal type reign on the Empire. From the way Mallick behaved, I think that that is quite a likely outcome. With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom. Mallick stands for those countries that supress and rule by keeping their populations under tight supervision.


I dont think the Empire compares well to Western countries. Remember the witch purges under Laseen, the anti-nobility purges etc. What the Empire did do was grant security from external threats and petty crime.


Regarding the Jhistal cult it may have worked in Falar but to have that same system over three continents with multiple gods? Unlikely. Also a large amount of Jhistal powers came from Malliks hold over Mael. That is now broken. That has probably changed the game. Also a uniform practice of the cult over huge areas, by huge populatiosn would probably result in asymmetric accumulation of power which would attract ascendants and then yo have a convergence.
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#15 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 11:55 AM

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom.


Don't really see that comparison myself. For a start, the Malazan Empire is not in any way a democracy, like most Western countries are/pretend to be. If anything, I think Western countries are parodied more in pre-Tehol Lether, where money rules suppreme as a critique on capitalism.

I think a better comparison would be the Roman Empire, where Roman science, advancements and legislation were introduced to newly conquered domains, but a lot of the day-to-day ruling was heavily devolved.
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#16 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 12:29 PM

View PostGorefest, on 28 November 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom.


Don't really see that comparison myself. For a start, the Malazan Empire is not in any way a democracy, like most Western countries are/pretend to be. If anything, I think Western countries are parodied more in pre-Tehol Lether, where money rules suppreme as a critique on capitalism.

I think a better comparison would be the Roman Empire, where Roman science, advancements and legislation were introduced to newly conquered domains, but a lot of the day-to-day ruling was heavily devolved.


Agree about the Roman analogy. In historical terms it comes closest, though SE does not in any way idealize the Malazan Empire. Recall the beginning of GotM when the cavalry officer casully struck the old woman, immediately killing her.
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#17 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 08:52 PM

View PostAndorion, on 28 November 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostGorefest, on 28 November 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom.


Don't really see that comparison myself. For a start, the Malazan Empire is not in any way a democracy, like most Western countries are/pretend to be. If anything, I think Western countries are parodied more in pre-Tehol Lether, where money rules suppreme as a critique on capitalism.

I think a better comparison would be the Roman Empire, where Roman science, advancements and legislation were introduced to newly conquered domains, but a lot of the day-to-day ruling was heavily devolved.


Agree about the Roman analogy. In historical terms it comes closest, though SE does not in any way idealize the Malazan Empire. Recall the beginning of GotM when the cavalry officer casully struck the old woman, immediately killing her.


Agree with all of the above replies. I was probably thinking more of what Malazan rule meant in terms of leaving the general populous mostly to get on with life. Also, that anyone was able to rise to the top ranks by putting in the effort.

Although they had the Claw and other unsavoury practises, one gets the feeling that overall, the empire dealt with people in a fairly straight forward manner. Mallick on the other hand is all manipulation. I feel that denunciation would be a major part of his strategy which is what makes me think of the former East Germany for example, where everyone lived in fear of the Secret Police.
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#18 User is offline   theocean 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 03:15 PM

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 28 November 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostGorefest, on 28 November 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom.


Don't really see that comparison myself. For a start, the Malazan Empire is not in any way a democracy, like most Western countries are/pretend to be. If anything, I think Western countries are parodied more in pre-Tehol Lether, where money rules suppreme as a critique on capitalism.

I think a better comparison would be the Roman Empire, where Roman science, advancements and legislation were introduced to newly conquered domains, but a lot of the day-to-day ruling was heavily devolved.


Agree about the Roman analogy. In historical terms it comes closest, though SE does not in any way idealize the Malazan Empire. Recall the beginning of GotM when the cavalry officer casully struck the old woman, immediately killing her.


Agree with all of the above replies. I was probably thinking more of what Malazan rule meant in terms of leaving the general populous mostly to get on with life. Also, that anyone was able to rise to the top ranks by putting in the effort.

Although they had the Claw and other unsavoury practises, one gets the feeling that overall, the empire dealt with people in a fairly straight forward manner. Mallick on the other hand is all manipulation. I feel that denunciation would be a major part of his strategy which is what makes me think of the former East Germany for example, where everyone lived in fear of the Secret Police.


Laseen had a lot of underhanded side plots going on as well to help manipulate people. She let very few know exactly what was going on. When she talks to Kalam in the throne room is the only real explanation we get for a lot of events, and Kalam was the only one to really hear it. Dujek knew a few things, Tay knew a thing or two but a lot of what she did was done behind closed doors with no explanation and if there was an issue with it, the claw would come knocking on your door.

Most great empires are shrouded in secrets at the upper levels. Its how things get done without a shit ton of obstacles clogging up the path.
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#19 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 01:18 PM

View PostEgwene, on 28 November 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

The biggest hint of what might be in store is in the dialogue between Jute and Giana Jalaz (Assail, Chapter 14, p.497)

Jute is concerned that Mallick will impose a Jhistal type reign on the Empire. From the way Mallick behaved, I think that that is quite a likely outcome. With the Malazan Empire, SE and ICE are basically pointing towards western democratic type countries like the US who, although sometimes patronizing and imperialistic (for want of better words) still make for living in freedom. Mallick stands for those countries that supress and rule by keeping their populations under tight supervision.


I interpreted Jute's comment differently. He's not saying Mallick is trying to reinstate Jhistal rule - he's saying mallick is hiding his Jhistal past because it would make for bad PR among the Falari (and several others, since they know what the Jhistal used to do, too).

Overall, the Empire looks like it might be in a stable place; not likely to expand anytime soon (at least, not after the events on Fist have shaken out) what with having no serious surplus armies, but also not likely to be wrecked anytime soon what with all major internal and external threats dealt with. The Wickans, though, are probably lost to the Empire - permanently.
I mean, the Toblakai exist, but given the history so far, I'd sooner expect the Toblakai to, in the end, not amount to all that much. If anything, the series has consistently shown 'barbarians' unable to stand up to civilization except rarely, on the defensive.
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Posted 07 January 2015 - 10:08 AM

There is a great quote at the beginning of one of the chapters in the Bonehunters about Grub rising to be First Sword of Empire in the "late Empire period". From this it seems to me that the Empire will suffer a period of decline under Mellick Rel, at least in the short term leading to a resurgence in this late Empire period, hopefully beginning with Mellick finally getting whats coming to him.

I don't think the threat of Karsa Orlong should be dismissed lightly. A lot of people (and Ascendants) have underestimated him and paid for it. Plus he'll be leading an army of Teblor horse warriors, and I think that would give pretty much everyone pause. Add to this the fact the Tarthenal of leader believe him to be their new god there is no telling the potential for destruction that could be unleashed. Given that Steven Erikson is doing a trilogy on the Toblakai I can see hordes of Teblor horse warriors sweeping down much as Ghengis Khan did on earth. Also it seems probable that he will not be the only one able to shrug off magic and become a warren unto himself given it was theorized that his resistance to magic comes from the use of blood oil (which was linked to another source of ottateral) and the ability to become a warren unto themselves was far more common among earlier Tartheno peoples and the Teblor have essentially "devolved" back to be closer to their early ancestors.
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