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Tiste Andii family tree inconsistencies

#1 User is offline   BellaGrace 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:28 PM

I'm only 77% through RG, but I have some questions that are driving me crazy and I don't want to search on the forums too much because I don't want to have things spoiled.

I can't believe how inconsistent Erickson is when he mentions anything to do with the Tiste Andii family tree.

In earlier books, I believe it was said that Phaed was Nimander's daughter and Envy was her mother...but she is repeatedly called "sister" by Nimander (I read somewhere on this site that everyone kind of excuses that statement because Envy is also Nimander's monther). It was also stated in a previous book that Nimander is Rake's first son - but Nimander is said to be quite young and we know that Rake is very old. It seems illogical that he would be Rake's first son.

In RG Nimander says several times that he and Phaed know about the Silandra and that it is their parents that are dead on board. At first I was willing to excuse that because maybe he meant generally that it was the parents of the Drift Avalli Tiste Andii were on that ship, and not his parents or Phaed's specifically. However, later Nimander says specifically that Phaed's mother was on that ship.

At some point in RG it's stated Menandore, Sukul and Shaltata are all sisters, but in a previous book it says that 2 of them are Osserc's daughters and one of them is Scabandari's daughter and that they are cousins.

These inconsistencies are really driving me crazy. I realize that you guys are going to find a way to explain it away - like someone is probably going to tell me that Phaed's mother on the Silandra was just a "mother figure" someone that raised her. I realize that making those kind of assumptions is necessarily because we have such conflicting statements. However, it seems to me that at some point Erikson has forgotten some of the details he put down in other books. I can't believe that he and his editors are deliberately trying to confuse everyone. I'm willing to forgive the timeline issues between GotM and Midnight Tides, but stuff like this is harder to get over since it's so obviously wrong or just outright contradictory. I'm hoping someone is going to tell me "RAFO" and everything will become clear.

I'm sure this topic has been addressed many times so I'm apologizing in advance for asking about it...like I said, I am afraid to dig around too much in case the ending of RG or the last few books are spoiled.

PS - I'm on chapter 21 - the one that starts out with a bunch of the Bonehunter squads meeting up at a tavern and then getting attacked by Tiste Edur.... so no spoilers past that please

This post has been edited by BellaGrace: 19 November 2014 - 03:38 PM

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#2 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:46 PM

A common theme running through the books is what we hear, what we see, what other people believe happened, what actually happened and what actually, actually happened. It's a case of the unreliable narrator that is intentionally and unintentionally used to create mystery and also hand wave honest mistakes.

In many of the cases you mention you have to remember that the ancient stories are often misunderstood, miss-remembered or things have changed as the tale has been told again and again- For example the term sisters is more of a religious/military/cultural thing and not an actual case of blood relation... or at least not that kind of blood relation... or is it?

You are probably going to start ripping out your hair when you read Forge of Darkness.

This post has been edited by Apt: 19 November 2014 - 03:47 PM

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#3 User is offline   BellaGrace 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 04:24 PM

View PostApt, on 19 November 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

A common theme running through the books is what we hear, what we see, what other people believe happened, what actually happened and what actually, actually happened. It's a case of the unreliable narrator that is intentionally and unintentionally used to create mystery and also hand wave honest mistakes.

In many of the cases you mention you have to remember that the ancient stories are often misunderstood, miss-remembered or things have changed as the tale has been told again and again- For example the term sisters is more of a religious/military/cultural thing and not an actual case of blood relation... or at least not that kind of blood relation... or is it?

You are probably going to start ripping out your hair when you read Forge of Darkness.


I just can't agree with this - I feel like readers are making excuses for Erikson's mistakes. The only way any of it can be explained is by saying it's a "cultural thing - sisters can be mean good friends" - but in a book of this scope and magnitude I don't see the author intentionally confusing us in this manner.

Nimander can't be an unreliable narrator about who his own parents are. Menadore and "sisters" aren't confused about who their parent's are. The things I point out in my first post are not examples of a story losing details over time - these are conflicting factual statements made by the people who would know. A narrator might not remember exactly what happened when Scabandari betrayed the Tiste Andii 300,000 years ago, but they would remember who their parents are - especially if they are as young as Nimander and Phaed are said to be.
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#4 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 04:27 PM

There seem to be loads of issues with the family relationships that even FoD so far is not addressing. You can indeed either carve them down to accidental inconsistencies, unreliable narrators, cultural naming rules and/or a combination of all. There does seem to be a plot-consistent element in it as well though, as we do know that references such as 'son' or 'sister' do not necessarily equate to biological sons/daughters but can also have a cultural background. As far as I know, this has not been addressed in detail (although it might be in future Kharkanas novels), but for instance it is not inconceivable that two biologically completely unrelated Tiste may consider themselves brothers or sisters due to a shared ritual that they have partaken in, which had such an impact that it could almost be considered a rebirth. But that's mostly speculation on my part.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 19 November 2014 - 04:29 PM

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#5 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 05:05 PM

View PostBellaGrace, on 19 November 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

View PostApt, on 19 November 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

A common theme running through the books is what we hear, what we see, what other people believe happened, what actually happened and what actually, actually happened. It's a case of the unreliable narrator that is intentionally and unintentionally used to create mystery and also hand wave honest mistakes.

In many of the cases you mention you have to remember that the ancient stories are often misunderstood, miss-remembered or things have changed as the tale has been told again and again- For example the term sisters is more of a religious/military/cultural thing and not an actual case of blood relation... or at least not that kind of blood relation... or is it?

You are probably going to start ripping out your hair when you read Forge of Darkness.


I just can't agree with this - I feel like readers are making excuses for Erikson's mistakes. The only way any of it can be explained is by saying it's a "cultural thing - sisters can be mean good friends" - but in a book of this scope and magnitude I don't see the author intentionally confusing us in this manner.

Nimander can't be an unreliable narrator about who his own parents are. Menadore and "sisters" aren't confused about who their parent's are. The things I point out in my first post are not examples of a story losing details over time - these are conflicting factual statements made by the people who would know. A narrator might not remember exactly what happened when Scabandari betrayed the Tiste Andii 300,000 years ago, but they would remember who their parents are - especially if they are as young as Nimander and Phaed are said to be.


I really can't wait for you to read FoD. You think you are confused now.....
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#6 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 05:23 PM

I agree that there are inconsistencies. I would encourage you to look past them and enjoy the novels.

This is a work of fiction of many volumes and that too fantasy fiction and not of logic and science and for that reason there is no concept of 2nd edition and such. So there is a possibility of errors and really no way of correcting them.
Being such a major intellectual exercise, the author might have an idea about the characters to start with but has the right to change his mind later to make a better story.
Overall, the fact SE has been consistent for most of the time is itself an achievement that can be celebrated rather than focusing on the minuscule part that looks inconsistent
And finally SE might actually surprise you if you are patient enough.






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#7 User is offline   BellaGrace 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:08 PM

View Postnacht, on 19 November 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I agree that there are inconsistencies. I would encourage you to look past them and enjoy the novels.

Being such a major intellectual exercise, the author might have an idea about the characters to start with but has the right to change his mind later to make a better story.
Overall, the fact SE has been consistent for most of the time is itself an achievement that can be celebrated rather than focusing on the minuscule part that looks inconsistent
And finally SE might actually surprise you if you are patient enough.



That's exactly what I'm doing. Considering the size and scope of the Malazan books, I understand that there will be mistakes (like the MT timeline vs GotM) and some things can and should be overlooked. In the case of MT, Erikson had no idea he was going to write that storyline when he wrote GotM - so I can just let those inconsistencies go. Maybe I care more about the Tiste errors because I really like that part of the story. It seems like Rake being Nimander's father is an important part of his identity - it seems like a lot of Nimander's POV is his internal monologues about not measuring up to Rake or wanting to be more like him. So all that really gets thrown off when he later says his parents were on the Silandra.

Look - I'm a fan of Erikson - I love this book series. I feel sometimes posters on this forum get defensive when any criticism is made of him (and I don't mean specifically people in this thread). I would just like to have more people say "hey, I agree that this is a mistake". Erikson isn't infallible, it doesn't make me like the books less because of the mistakes, it just drives me crazy in my mind. It's still possible to love something despite flaws.

This post has been edited by BellaGrace: 19 November 2014 - 07:26 PM

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#8 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 09:06 PM

Does Erikson or Esslemont make mistakes? Certainly. However, a good chunk of the inconsistencies are made by design not mistake. Erikson has himself stated in interviews that he wants the truth to be murky.

That's not the fandom protecting the author, that's just what we have to go by.

You need to keep in mind that everything you are reading is supposedly something written in the Malazan book of the Fallen. It's an unknown authors chronicles of the Malazan Empire. As all history books or biographies, there will be mistakes and inconcistencies and lies.

Again, just wait until you read FOD.
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#9 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 10:08 PM

The Menandore-Sheltatha-Sukul thing I don't think is wrong. AFAIR, the only reason we think of them as "sisters" is because of the Tiste Edur mythology (the same mythology that labels Scabandari as Father Shadow, which no one else seems to do). Our flashback from Udinaas in MT revealed that Sukul and Menandore are daughters of Osserc while Sheltatha is a daughter of Scabandari. Even then, they could all have a common mother (Tiam), and be biologically half-sisters. Or, it could just be that the Edur mythology is wrong.


Phaed, on the other hand, is a bit tougher. Here's the actual quote from The Bonehunters:

Quote

'No they ain't. See the tallest one there, with the long white hair.

His name is Nimander Golit. And that pretty woman beside him, that's Phaed, his first daughter. All seven of 'em are cousins, sisters, brothers, but it's Nimander who leads, since he's the oldest. Nimander says he is the first son of the Son.'

'The what?'

'The Son of Darkness, Banaschar. Know who that is? That's Anomander Rake. Look at 'em, they're all Rake's brood – grandchildren mostly, except for Nimander, who's father to a lot of 'em, but not all. Now, maybe someone's got a hate on for foreigners – you really think that someone would be stupid enough to go after the whelps of Anomander Rake?'

Banaschar turned slightly, stared over at the figures. He slowly blinked, then shook his head. 'Not unless they're suicidal.'

'Right, and that's something you'd know all about, ain't it?'

'So, if Anomander Rake is Nimander's father, who was the mother?'

'Ah, you're not completely blind, then. You can see, can't you?

Different mothers, for some of 'em. And one of those mothers wasn't no Tiste Andii, was she? Look at Phaed-'

'I can only see the back of her head.'

'Whatever. I looked at her, and I asked her that very same question you just asked me.'

'What?'

' "Who was your mother?" '

'Mine?'

'And she smiled – and I nearly died, Banaschar, and I mean it. Nearly died. Bursting blood vessels in my brain, toppling over nearly died.

Anyway, she told me, and it wasn't no Tiste Andii kind of name, and from the looks of her I'd say the other half was human, but then again, can you really tell with these things? Not really.'

'No, really, what was the name?'

'Lady Envy, who used to know Anomander Rake himself, and got her revenge taking his son as a lover. Messy, eh? But if she was anything like that Phaed there, with that smile, well, envy's the only word – for every other woman in the world. Gods below… hey, Banaschar, what's wrong? You suddenly look real sick. The ale's not that bad, not like what we had last night, anyway. Look, if you're thinking of fillin' a plate on the tabletop, there ain't no plate, right? And the boards are warped, and that means it'll sluice onto my legs, and that' ll get me very annoyed – for Hood's sake, man, draw a damned breath!'



Now, keep in mind this is all the drunken ramblings of Braven Tooth as interpreted by Banaschar, who is infinitely more drunk, but nevertheless from the above here's what I get:

--Nimander is Anomander's first son
--*most* of the rest are Nimander's own children
--Phaed is Nimander's first daughter
--Envy is Phaed's mother (implied)

And yeah, in contrast, after tBH all the Andii of this group seem to be brothers and sisters, all children of Rake rather than grandchildren. Nimander seems a lot younger, too, not like someone who has fathered a whole bunch of children he is travelling around with. Granted Tiste Andii are not human but it is still pretty uncharacteristic.

So, in order to justify the differences between these different depictions, you basically have to conclude that Braven Tooth is horribly wrong on every point he makes... in which case what was the point of reading that scene in the first place?


This isn't a perfect series, there are little inconsistencies here and there. Balgrid goes from being a Shadow mage to a necromancer from HoC/tBH to RG. Saltlick teleports between two different squads in RG. The 9th Company gets called the 4th Company. Orfantal changes genders from GotM to MoI (in some editions). Duiker has but hasn't met Pormqual? There were how many Jaghut wars again? Lorn had a deep and personal friendship with Toc the Elder when she was 2 months old?

Sure, you can devise ways of explaining anything away...

{ Balgrid just never mentioned being a necromancer before, Orfantal is a closet transexual and all the other Andii support it, Saltlick has a twin brother and no one can tell them apart, the T'lan Imass armies each have their own tally, Duiker met a Pormqual imposter in a brothel, Lorn writes erotic Toc the Elder fanfic in her spare time, SE deliberately wanted the narrative voice to use the wrong Company numbers in order to instill a sense of drunken fluidity and intransigence in the reader thereby subconsciously subduing the reader's natural sense of foresight and heightening the carefully sculpted emotional tapestry that would soon come all of which is obviously SE's way of paying tribute to Homer as it mirrors the reverse literary technique used in line 14712 of the Odyssey }

...but it is probably a lot easier and saner to accept that there are going to be a few inconsistencies in this series that just plain don't make sense.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#10 User is offline   BellaGrace 

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 11:16 PM

View PostD, on 19 November 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

The Menandore-Sheltatha-Sukul thing I don't think is wrong. AFAIR, the only reason we think of them as "sisters" is because of the Tiste Edur mythology (the same mythology that labels Scabandari as Father Shadow, which no one else seems to do). Our flashback from Udinaas in MT revealed that Sukul and Menandore are daughters of Osserc while Sheltatha is a daughter of Scabandari. Even then, they could all have a common mother (Tiam), and be biologically half-sisters. Or, it could just be that the Edur mythology is wrong.


Completely agree and that's that explanation is entirely reasonable/plausible.



View PostD, on 19 November 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

So, in order to justify the differences between these different depictions, you basically have to conclude that Braven Tooth is horribly wrong on every point he makes... in which case what was the point of reading that scene in the first place?


Exactly....I think that you have to assume some basic facts are going to be true, otherwise what can you believe, if anything, in the book? I understand Erikson wanting things to be murky and I think he does a great job with that and showing both sides of the story and how easily it is to get two totally different stories out of the same event based on the side you're fighting for.


View PostD, on 19 November 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

This isn't a perfect series, there are little inconsistencies here and there. Balgrid goes from being a Shadow mage to a necromancer from HoC/tBH to RG. Saltlick teleports between two different squads in RG. The 9th Company gets called the 4th Company. Orfantal changes genders from GotM to MoI (in some editions). Duiker has but hasn't met Pormqual? There were how many Jaghut wars again? Lorn had a deep and personal friendship with Toc the Elder when she was 2 months old?


See, most of those I didn't know about or they are minor enough that I they don't bother me...

Although the thing about Orfantal... missed that completely.



View PostD, on 19 November 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

...but it is probably a lot easier and saner to accept that there are going to be a few inconsistencies in this series that just plain don't make sense.


First your explanations are pretty funny (Lorn writing erotic fiction - ha) - and I agree too about there will be a few inconsistencies. I just wish I knew wish version of the Tiste family tree is the one I should go with.

PS - I've really been looking forward to reading FoD since the Tiste Andii are my favorites and I figured that book would provide some clarity. Sounds like it's just going to muck up the water even more!

EDIT - PPS - D'rek (and the rest of you) - how many times have you read this series - your answers are always so detailed you've blown my mind a few times in things I've seen you say!

This post has been edited by BellaGrace: 19 November 2014 - 11:17 PM

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#11 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 12:05 AM

FoD actually answers plenty even as it mucks up other stuff (in an intriguing way) as well.

One plausibility for Nimander and Co. is simply that they didn't tell anyone in Malaz City the truth. Why would they? They're foreign survivors of a recent slaughter. The ruse ends when they finally reach Sandalath. It might also be that The Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale were compiled by different historians, or the same historian but from different source materials.

Not that Apt and D'rek are wrong about the convenience of having that 'out'. But as far as 'out's go, it's a good one.
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#12 User is offline   BellaGrace 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 01:01 AM

View Postworry, on 20 November 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

FoD actually answers plenty even as it mucks up other stuff (in an intriguing way) as well.

One plausibility for Nimander and Co. is simply that they didn't tell anyone in Malaz City the truth. Why would they? They're foreign survivors of a recent slaughter. The ruse ends when they finally reach Sandalath. It might also be that The Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale were compiled by different historians, or the same historian but from different source materials.

Not that Apt and D'rek are wrong about the convenience of having that 'out'. But as far as 'out's go, it's a good one.


But if we're to read The Malazan Book of the Fallen as something written by a historian, it wouldn't include people's inner thoughts - there wouldn't be sections with specific POVs. I've never felt that the series was meant to be read as if it was the Bible - a collection of stories written by many authors.
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#13 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 02:07 AM

Historians write in all kinds of modes, even on Earth. Who knows how they operate on this fictional world, and over the course of millennia? In Cold Blood certainly gives its subjects points of views and inner monologue. Is it an academic history textbook? No. It's a "non-fiction" novel, a work of extensively researched journalism, and a sharp, affecting piece of writing to boot. Someone other than Truman Capote, writing of the same story, may have focused on entirely different details though, and may even have landed differently on the makeup of the facts.

And it's perfectly fine not to think of the stories as having many authors, just as it's perfectly fine to think they do.

I'm not trying to persuade you to think one way or another, per se. I'm just of the opinion that the books rub up against each other imperfectly like if you tried to shove Pangaea back together, but the resulting, uh, earthquakes are fun.
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#14 User is offline   melonhead 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 06:10 AM

Sure, you can devise ways of explaining anything away...

{ Balgrid just never mentioned being a necromancer before, Orfantal is a closet transexual and all the other Andii support it, Saltlick has a twin brother and no one can tell them apart, the T'lan Imass armies each have their own tally, Duiker met a Pormqual imposter in a brothel, Lorn writes erotic Toc the Elder fanfic in her spare time, SE deliberately wanted the narrative voice to use the wrong Company numbers in order to instill a sense of drunken fluidity and intransigence in the reader thereby subconsciously subduing the reader's natural sense of foresight and heightening the carefully sculpted emotional tapestry that would soon come all of which is obviously SE's way of paying tribute to Homer as it mirrors the reverse literary technique used in line 14712 of the Odyssey }

...but it is probably a lot easier and saner to accept that there are going to be a few inconsistencies in this series that just plain don't make sense.
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#15 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 11:18 AM

View PostBellaGrace, on 19 November 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

Exactly....I think that you have to assume some basic facts are going to be true, otherwise what can you believe, if anything, in the book?


It can indeed be a case of how much are you willing to roll along with, but it also pays to remember that we really don't know very much at all about the technicalities behind some very basic concepts in the series. Important technicalities such as the nature of magic, the Holds/Warrens, and Ascendancy. Take the whole Soletakne/D'ivers idea, for instance. I'll put the next bit in spoiler brackets just in case, although I am not sure it can be considered as such as it is more some personal and possibly idiotic ramblings:

Spoiler

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 20 November 2014 - 11:21 AM

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#16 User is offline   Felisin Fatter 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 01:22 PM

About that quote: 'First son' and 'First daughter' are titles among the Andii, so I think Braven misunderstood what they were telling him. He concluded it was the biological term and rolled with it, projecting human generations on the thing. It seems to me that Nimanders group are all second (maybe third or more?) generation soletaken, kept hidden for a long time and in a kind of uhm... 'suspension of development', they were taught mainly to repress their powers, which seems to also slow down growth in baby soletaken (looking at some other examples). Maybe their actual mothers had to act like mhybes and that affects things? Also, my guess would be Phaed is the child of Anomander and Envy, Nimander calls her 'first daughter' because she is his second in command, or the second most powerful or something. She is also his sister, maybe even a full sister, if not I am now really curious who is Nimanders mom...
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Posted 20 November 2014 - 03:53 PM

View PostFelisin Fatter, on 20 November 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

About that quote: 'First son' and 'First daughter' are titles among the Andii, so I think Braven misunderstood what they were telling him.


Perfect explanation and not at all out of the ordinary for these books, although so out of the ordinary for the genre it makes it tougher for some to swallow than others. Phaed is Nimander's sister and he is "First Son", so perhaps they refer to her as "First Daughter", but Braven hears it as she was Nimander's first daughter. Unreliable narrator delivering 2nd hand information being relayed at a noisy port city bar to a raging alcoholic who is barely holding on to his own consciousness and sanity.

it's said somewhere that Envy seduced Nimander so I don't think she's his mother, although I wouldn't put it past her.

Tiste are long-lived, so having a long childhood is not out the ordinary, and the span of time, its all relative to them. So considering Envy and Anomander's adventures were quite some time ago, the likely conception of their progeny took place long ago as well.
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Posted 20 November 2014 - 04:06 PM

Everyone here is making good points and you all have great reasons for explaining the inconsistencies. I just don't see how Erikson being that confusing and deliberately misleading serves any purpose. I think he just made a mistake, and we all have to rationalize and accept it as best we can.

PS - In one of the Q&A sessions in the TOR reread (for HoC I think) Erikson was asked about some acorn thing that Lostara had and then she gave it Kalam (maybe) - I don't remember exactly but a lot of people were asking Erikson what happened to that acorn/rock (whatever it was) and Erikson couldn't even recall anything about it. It's totally understandable to not remember ever detail out of 10,000 pages of books.

PPS - I don't think the soletaken thing that was covered in a spoiler tag is really a spoiler - it's been mentioned in other books that drinking the blood of Tiam.
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#19 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 04:17 PM

View PostBellaGrace, on 20 November 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Everyone here is making good points and you all have great reasons for explaining the inconsistencies. I just don't see how Erikson being that confusing and deliberately misleading serves any purpose. I think he just made a mistake, and we all have to rationalize and accept it as best we can.


Which is indeed a real possibility. But at the same time, we know for a fact that
Spoiler
why would it be such a leap to assume that other 'family' titles in Tiste culture do not necessarily have the same meaning as in human/Malazan culture? It is not purely a desperate fan-apology story conjured out of thin air, there is solid evidence in the books that these discrepancies exist and are deliberate.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 20 November 2014 - 06:36 PM

Yesterday, upon the stair, I saw a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. Oh, how I wish he'd go away.
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#20 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 04:59 PM

This is Reapers Gale forum and we are in or near spoiler territory.
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