[Introspect]

This might be blasphemy to some of you and considering I'm a newbie at this, go easy on me.

Will no one discuss how stretched out the chain of dogs section of the book was? I mean, I get the fact that Mr Erikson is trying to make us experience the grind and the torturous-ness. But really, I felt the pace of the book was a bit off especially considering how the book ended with quite an unforeseen climax. It was difficult for me to get through Duiker's internal monologuing. I sometimes feel that Erikson struggles with how to manage the plot. Maybe its because he is first an anthropologist and then a writer. I wonder if his writing gets better as the series progresses. Also I am no writer and I am just posting this as an avid reader of books.

[Andorion]

 Introspect, on 22 September 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

This might be blasphemy to some of you and considering I'm a newbie at this, go easy on me.

Will no one discuss how stretched out the chain of dogs section of the book was? I mean, I get the fact that Mr Erikson is trying to make us experience the grind and the torturous-ness. But really, I felt the pace of the book was a bit off especially considering how the book ended with quite an unforeseen climax. It was difficult for me to get through Duiker's internal monologuing. I sometimes feel that Erikson struggles with how to manage the plot. Maybe its because he is first an anthropologist and then a writer. I wonder if his writing gets better as the series progresses. Also I am no writer and I am just posting this as an avid reader of books.

When I read DG for the first time, this was almost my own reaction. Duiker's monoguing can be a little hard to get into. But what I suggest you do is look at a map of Seven Cities (If you already haven't) and try to understand the unbelievable distance they travelled, with thousands of refugees, most of whom were totally unprepared for such an ordeal against constant attacks through a land hostile in both the military and the environmental sense. What Erikson does is to construct and evoke a sense of awe at the epic scope of the march, at the depth of misery and as a counterpoint the height of valour of the Malazan army. When I read the book for the second time I absolutely loved it.

Also internal monologues are a staple of Erikson. Its how he fleshes out his characters as well as his world.

[Traveller]

I have to say, I didn't find it drawn-out. Or to have an 'unforeseen' climax - the whole story of the Chain was building gradually towards a big, dramatic ending.

SE is all about the foreshadowing; the build towards a convergence or finale, which I thought was exceptionally well done, mind blowing tragic though it was, in DG.

[theocean]

I know the book is heavy as shit, but i dont think its really drawn out all that much. The book has basically constant action. Its hard for me to call something drawn out when there is always action going down.

[Abyss]

The Chain has it's longer/quieter stretches, but given the sick mad high of each engagement... and seriously... there are six or so military engagements (the initial breakaway, the ambush, Vathar Crossing, the Ramp, the Khundryll and The Fall) each one is a mad crazy sick agonizing action packed mass of fantasy lit awesome... plus the Shaman raid on the Semk God... how much more can a reader ask for? And those quieter moments... Lull's visions, 'promoting' the sapper captain, investing the former servants, "children are dying"... Yes, the quiet stretches are grim, but it's a refugee caravan battling across a continent... it's not supposed to be light and fluffy. Kalam, Fiddler and Lostara's plotlines provide ample snappy patter and straightforward action to break it up.

The first time i read the book, the Chain, but for the end, was my least favorite plotline (still saying a lot). The second, it became my favorite. The third (yes, i have a problem...) it escalated to one of my favorite in fantasy lit that i have ever read. The fourth... ok i'll stop now...

[Andorion]

 Abyss, on 22 September 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

The Chain has it's longer/quieter stretches, but given the sick mad high of each engagement... and seriously... there are six or so military engagements (the initial breakaway, the ambush, Vathar Crossing, the Ramp, the Khundryll and The Fall) each one is a mad crazy sick agonizing action packed mass of fantasy lit awesome... plus the Shaman raid on the Semk God... how much more can a reader ask for? And those quieter moments... Lull's visions, 'promoting' the sapper captain, investing the former servants, "children are dying"... Yes, the quiet stretches are grim, but it's a refugee caravan battling across a continent... it's not supposed to be light and fluffy. Kalam, Fiddler and Lostara's plotlines provide ample snappy patter and straightforward action to break it up.

The first time i read the book, the Chain, but for the end, was my least favorite plotline (still saying a lot). The second, it became my favorite. The third (yes, i have a problem...) it escalated to one of my favorite in fantasy lit that i have ever read. The fourth... ok i'll stop now...

Afraid to ask, but how many times have you read the books?

[Garak]

Personally I've read DG about 5 times and I've loved the Chain from the start.

[Vengeance]

 Andorion, on 22 September 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 22 September 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

The Chain has it's longer/quieter stretches, but given the sick mad high of each engagement... and seriously... there are six or so military engagements (the initial breakaway, the ambush, Vathar Crossing, the Ramp, the Khundryll and The Fall) each one is a mad crazy sick agonizing action packed mass of fantasy lit awesome... plus the Shaman raid on the Semk God... how much more can a reader ask for? And those quieter moments... Lull's visions, 'promoting' the sapper captain, investing the former servants, "children are dying"... Yes, the quiet stretches are grim, but it's a refugee caravan battling across a continent... it's not supposed to be light and fluffy. Kalam, Fiddler and Lostara's plotlines provide ample snappy patter and straightforward action to break it up.

The first time i read the book, the Chain, but for the end, was my least favorite plotline (still saying a lot). The second, it became my favorite. The third (yes, i have a problem...) it escalated to one of my favorite in fantasy lit that i have ever read. The fourth... ok i'll stop now...

Afraid to ask, but how many times have you read the books?

All total or just this year?

[Vengeance]

The first time I read DG it blew me away. So harsh such a vivid description of what a refuge run would have been like. I pictured people in the south sudan trying to flee to safety and being harassed the entire way. I have recommended that people start the serious on DG and as it was simply brilliant to me. One of the best books that I had read at that time. Of course I then started MOI... I feel as though DG because it is one of the shorter books that SE has done is completely action packed and a very very tightly written book.

[theocean]

 Vengeance, on 22 September 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

The first time I read DG it blew me away. So harsh such a vivid description of what a refuge run would have been like. I pictured people in the south sudan trying to flee to safety and being harassed the entire way. I have recommended that people start the serious on DG and as it was simply brilliant to me. One of the best books that I had read at that time. Of course I then started MOI... I feel as though DG because it is one of the shorter books that SE has done is completely action packed and a very very tightly written book.

The whole series has the uncomfortable times when crazy shit goes down. MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK REF DELETED. THIS IS THE DG FORUM THEOCEAN.




I wasw pretty sure people who hadnt read ahead would have no clue what i was referncing with only using one odd word.

This post has been edited by theocean: 23 September 2014 - 12:32 PM

[Abyss]

Andorion said:

Afraid to ask, but how many times have you read the books?

Yes.

[korik]

I find that interesting that the same piece of writing can be recieved is such different ways, I am in the Abyss camp all the way.... the Chain of Dogs is probably my favorite story thread in everything I've read. It gripped me from the very start, IMHO it is perfectly paced, it has moments of extreme tension and surprise during the battles, characterisation during the quieter scenes that add just enough glimpses into fascinating characters to make you care and leave you wanting more- Coltaine, Bult, Sormo, Duiker. Who wouldn't want to read stories about their previous lives (somehow I am sure it would never measure up to what I have imagined but that is the beauty of the writing) But, all that just makes the ending that much more heartbreaking, I always shed a tear when reading about the fall, and then Erikson punches you when you are down during the surrender of the Aren Legion. And finally a small glimmer of hope with the saving of the city guard and the imminent arrival the adjunct.

The environment and cultures feel fleshed out, real and believable; I can totally picture tribes, former city states and a subcontinent acting in this way in response to an occupying empire. Also the setting feels unique, with its own history and not derivative of an existing culture as is so often the case in what we read.

Erikson has also spoken about having ex-soliders email him personally about how he got the army scenes just right and how they really helped them get through PTSD which I see as a huge compliment.

As to re-reads, the first 5 books I have lost count (at least five times) , 8, 9 and 10 only once - unfortunately I got married, a degree, a job and a baby; plus I broadened my limited reading time to other genres so this left less time for re-reads. I am planning a full series re-read soon though - will probably take me at least a year and a half!

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 korik, on 23 September 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

... I am in the Abyss camp all the way....

I hear the s'mores are to die for.

[MTS]

I can understand the OP's frustration at some sections of SE's writing sometimes feeling drawn out, but DG? No way, there's heaps of action and excitement in the Chain of Dogs storyline, and nowhere does it feel unnecessary because it's building up the sense of a long, gruelling death march. HoC is probably the first instance in my mind where I can see someone conceivably making that complaint.

[Tru]

I'm not sure why the topic is "will no one dare discuss this....." since, if you look at reviews on sites like Amazon, etc...this is the main objection that most ppl have regarding this book. Perhaps no one discusses it here though? Anyway, I'd read the reviews before reading this book and was bracing for it, but found that apparently I do not get bored with long drawn out fighting retreats like many do. I liked this book from beginning to end. The "chain of dogs" was broken up nicely by the other storylines in the book, so I never felt bored with the book as some did.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I was definitely in the blown away camp - it was Felisin's arc I failed to connect with the first read through.

Now on my third read (Fiddler et al have just caught up to Apsalar and Servant) and not only is it still the high point of the series (saying a lot for me), I think it might just be one of the most powerful books I've read. I can see that the Chain is thematically heavy and grim, but for me the pacing is perfect - I want those quiet moments to really feel what's happening.

[Andorion]

I remember loving this book on the first read, even though I was a bit annoyed that the cool bridgeburners more mostly stuck in Genebackis and this book was about a desert. (As a rule I dont like desert narratives). On my second read I was absolutely blown away by the Chain of Dogs. Its probably one of the greatest arcs written in fantasy. As for Felisin, I hated her the first time, but the second time I felt a bit of sympathy.

[caladanbrood]

I never had this issue with DhG. What I do remember not liking was the three or five completely disconnected storylines. While it seems ridiculous looking back now, GotM was more or less based all around one city, but the disconnection between say, Felisin and Kalam/Fiddler was difficult for me to keep track of the first time I read it. Considering that was in 2000 and I was both 13 and not well read in the genre, I don't feel as embarrassed to admit that as I might have done.

[Tru]

Quote

As for Felisin, I hated her the first time, but the second time I felt a bit of sympathy.

I disliked Felisin as well, and pretty much still dislike her. I understand she went through hell, but to the degree that she became this mean spirited bitch, who treated everyone with disdain...bleh, whatever. Her story is tragic, but it was made slightly easier in that her behavior disabled my ability to care a rats ass about her.

[worry]

If Felisin merely being "mean spirited" disables your ability to care about her, why isn't the abandonment, enslavement, and constant rape of her enough to excuse her own outlook on people? If your empathy switches off at the drop of a hat, and hers takes a months-long trip through hell to diminish, whose disdain is less righteous?