[D'rek]

I know SE blithely mentioned it as a sort of possibility in an interview years and years ago, but AFAIR this never actually happens in the books. Why do I keep seeing this idea tossed around in forum discussions? Is it just because people don't want to admit the timeline is a bit broken? (Not that having some warrens go faster or slower in time will fix issues of causality.)


The only possible reference to this in the books I can think of is in RotCG when Shimmer comes out of Mael's ocean prison, but it's vague and doesn't really impact the story much. I can't think of any other occurences, but I see this idea being used to "explain" things that don't need any such explanation, like the time between MT and MoI, Karsa's age and who knows what else.

[Abyss]

D, on 17 September 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I know SE blithely mentioned it as a sort of possibility in an interview years and years ago, but AFAIR this never actually happens in the books. Why do I keep seeing this idea tossed around in forum discussions? Is it just because people don't want to admit the timeline is a bit broken? (Not that having some warrens go faster or slower in time will fix issues of causality.)


The only possible reference to this in the books I can think of is in RotCG when Shimmer comes out of Mael's ocean prison, but it's vague and doesn't really impact the story much. I can't think of any other occurences, but I see this idea being used to "explain" things that don't need any such explanation, like the time between MT and MoI, Karsa's age and who knows what else.

What about DG? The Chain of Dogs storyline runs months, but Kalam, Fid n co, Felisin n co, and Pearl/Lostara all seem to take radically less time, and all of them travel thru warrens.

[jonny_anonymous]

Isn't Udinass's son a fully grown man after only being born a few months ago because he grew up in a different warren?

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 17 September 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

D, on 17 September 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I know SE blithely mentioned it as a sort of possibility in an interview years and years ago, but AFAIR this never actually happens in the books. Why do I keep seeing this idea tossed around in forum discussions? Is it just because people don't want to admit the timeline is a bit broken? (Not that having some warrens go faster or slower in time will fix issues of causality.)


The only possible reference to this in the books I can think of is in RotCG when Shimmer comes out of Mael's ocean prison, but it's vague and doesn't really impact the story much. I can't think of any other occurences, but I see this idea being used to "explain" things that don't need any such explanation, like the time between MT and MoI, Karsa's age and who knows what else.

What about DG? The Chain of Dogs storyline runs months, but Kalam, Fid n co, Felisin n co, and Pearl/Lostara all seem to take radically less time, and all of them travel thru warrens.

All the books are written like that, though. The Bonehunters are leaving Raraku... then two chapters later they are near Lato Revae and it seems like only maybe a couple days have passed at most. Then whoosh they're at Y'Ghatan. Karsa gets captured and whoosh what seems like minutes later he is being loaded onto a boat and then whoosh the boat has traveled across the entirety of upper Genebackis and is now in the Meningalle Ocean. Bonehunters leave Letheas and whoosh they're on barges in the Awl plain what seems like a few days later.

jonny_anonymous, on 17 September 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Isn't Udinass's son a fully grown man after only being born a few months ago because he grew up in a different warren?

Rud Elalle grows fast because he's a dragon. If anything, being in the Refugium should make him grow slower!

[Malaclypse]

D, on 17 September 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I know SE blithely mentioned it as a sort of possibility in an interview years and years ago, but AFAIR this never actually happens in the books. Why do I keep seeing this idea tossed around in forum discussions? Is it just because people don't want to admit the timeline is a bit broken? (Not that having some warrens go faster or slower in time will fix issues of causality.)


The only possible reference to this in the books I can think of is in RotCG when Shimmer comes out of Mael's ocean prison, but it's vague and doesn't really impact the story much. I can't think of any other occurences, but I see this idea being used to "explain" things that don't need any such explanation, like the time between MT and MoI, Karsa's age and who knows what else.

Lorn and Tool in GotM:

Quote

How much time is this going to take?’
‘Time?’ There was amusement in his voice. ‘Within this barrow,
Adjunct, time does not exist. The Jaghut who imprisoned their kin
brought an age of ice to this land, the barrow’s final seal. Adjunct, a halfleague
of ice stands over this burial chamber – still. We have come to a
time and place before the faltering of the Jaghut ice, before the coming
of the great inland sea known to the Imass as Jhagra Til, before the
passing of countless ages—’
‘And when we return?’ Lorn interrupted. ‘How much time will have
passed?’
‘I cannot say, Adjunct.’ The Imass paused and turned back to her, his
eye sockets glimmering with a sourceless light. ‘I have never done this
before.’

Kulp and Gesler in DG:

Quote

Gesler: ‘How long ago?’
Kulp: ‘Years. Decades. We’re in a warren, Corporal. No telling how time
works here.’

I'm sure there's more relevant passages out there but this is all I have the time for today.

[D'rek]

Good quote-fu Mal.

Interestingly, though, neither of those really has much effect right? Lorn and Tool emerge from the barrow about as long after entering as they seem to have spent inside, and Gesler and co. don't spend an abnormally short or long time with the Silanah (granted, we don't see them sleep, so maybe it was only a day for them while it was a few weeks on the outside... but then again its perfectly normal for us to skip over when people sleep in this series 'cause that would be boring).

[Hetan]

see ambiguous display name...Hetan is not responsible for what follows:

OK, Devil's Advocate, it does not matter what actual effect occurs. What matters is that people who have intimate knowledge of the Warrens believe that time can behave strangely in them. End of.

[D'rek]

Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal), on 17 September 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

see ambiguous display name...Hetan is not responsible for what follows:

OK, Devil's Advocate, it does not matter what actual effect occurs. What matters is that people who have intimate knowledge of the Warrens believe that time can behave strangely in them. End of.

I suppose. Doesn't mean it should just be bandied about as an excuse for everything in the forums, though!

[Hetan]

should, could, whatever...not interested in that conversation but the question you started this thread with has been answered

[Illuyankas]

Remember the shortcut the Perish give the Bonehunters? Pretty sure they spend months in an ocean warren and arrive somewhere much earlier in realtime.

[Abyss]

D, on 17 September 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Hetan (Also Actually Possibly Mal), on 17 September 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

see ambiguous display name...Hetan is not responsible for what follows:

OK, Devil's Advocate, it does not matter what actual effect occurs. What matters is that people who have intimate knowledge of the Warrens believe that time can behave strangely in them. End of.

I suppose. Doesn't mean it should just be bandied about as an excuse for everything in the forums, though!

It's hardly an excuse when it's an established fact in the story's world. It doesn't explain Harllo, but otherwise it pretty much covers all points when it's raised, non?

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Harllo The Elder, or Harllo The Younger?

[blackzoid]

What are the major time-screwups again?

1: Harllo
2: Trull chained to the wall, how long?
3: Fear and Silchas and co wandering around between MT and RG.

Only the second takes place in a warren. The otehr 2 are in the "real" world right?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 September 2014 - 12:05 PM

[Egwene]

I totally agree with D'rek that we shouldn't just take 'it is said' for a fact without finding our own supporting reasons to believe it. I would be very interested if anyone can dig up more quotes that relate to the way time passes in warrens.

Time does seem to be standing still in the Azath Houses. Rallick and Vorcan are sleeping for a very long time, yet they need no food or drink.

[Abyss]

blackzoid, on 18 September 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

What are the major time-screwups again?

1: Harllo
2: Trull chained to the wall, how long?
3: Fear and Silchas and co wandering around between MT and RG.

Only the second takes place in a warren. The otehr 2 are in the "real" world right?

Fear and co are a bit unclear, but since we don't actually see them between MT and RG, we don't know that they weren't in a warren. That's all i got, but it's that, or they were walking across most of the Letherii Empire and it just took however frikkin long to get where they were going.

Egwene, on 18 September 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

I totally agree with D'rek that we shouldn't just take 'it is said' for a fact without finding our own supporting reasons to believe it.

But it's not just said, it's fact. Sand is dry, water is wet, and time passes differently in warrens. Multiple books clearly show this, so what's the debate? Where does it say that time doesn't pass strangely in warrens?

Quote

I would be very interested if anyone can dig up more quotes that relate to the way time passes in warrens.

Hey, i'm all for forumites exercising their quote fu, but Mal's quotes say what they say and the other examples are pretty clear.

Quote

Time does seem to be standing still in the Azath Houses. Rallick and Vorcan are sleeping for a very long time, yet they need no food or drink.

... and Azath Houses exist in /generate what? Say it with me now... 'warrens'. (Tremolor was an entire maze around the actual house, the Deadhouse is way bigger inside than out, etc etc).

[D'rek]

Illuyankas, on 17 September 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Remember the shortcut the Perish give the Bonehunters? Pretty sure they spend months in an ocean warren and arrive somewhere much earlier in realtime.

Hmm, I'll have to go re-read that one to be sure, but AFAIR they go through the warren and emerge far away, much faster than they would have going around the long way, but they don't spend any more or less time in the warren as time passes outside it.

blackzoid, on 18 September 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

What are the major time-screwups again?

1: Harllo
2: Trull chained to the wall, how long?
3: Fear and Silchas and co wandering around between MT and RG.

Only the second takes place in a warren. The otehr 2 are in the "real" world right?

Right.

Also, off the top of my head:

--the RG prologue where the White Face Barghast have somehow left Genebackis long after Callows was raided by Edur fleets but arrived on Lether before the Edur have even taken it over in MT.

--Logros, after his army defeats the Jaghut/Jhag in the Jhag Odhan, declaring Dassem Ultor the new First Sword, when the T'lan Imass slaughtering Aren and marching off into the Jhag Odhan occured *after* the battle at Y'Ghatan and Dassem's "death".

--(a minor one) Lorn having known Toc the Elder - her supposed age and backstory compared to when Toc would have disappeared make that rather hard to believe.

Egwene, on 18 September 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

I totally agree with D'rek that we shouldn't just take 'it is said' for a fact without finding our own supporting reasons to believe it. I would be very interested if anyone can dig up more quotes that relate to the way time passes in warrens.

Time does seem to be standing still in the Azath Houses. Rallick and Vorcan are sleeping for a very long time, yet they need no food or drink.

I don't see the Azath as actually stopping time. If it was just a time barrier, there'd be no reason for poison to become inert or anything like that. I just see it as a magic stasis effect, that preserves people the way they are, so anyone inside's cells don't die or split. You still experience time passing the same as outside, you just don't age or suffer from injuries.

[Malaclypse]

D, on 18 September 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 17 September 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Remember the shortcut the Perish give the Bonehunters? Pretty sure they spend months in an ocean warren and arrive somewhere much earlier in realtime.

Hmm, I'll have to go re-read that one to be sure, but AFAIR they go through the warren and emerge far away, much faster than they would have going around the long way, but they don't spend any more or less time in the warren as time passes outside it.

blackzoid, on 18 September 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

What are the major time-screwups again?

1: Harllo
2: Trull chained to the wall, how long?
3: Fear and Silchas and co wandering around between MT and RG.

Only the second takes place in a warren. The otehr 2 are in the "real" world right?

Right.

Also, off the top of my head:

--the RG prologue where the White Face Barghast have somehow left Genebackis long after Callows was raided by Edur fleets but arrived on Lether before the Edur have even taken it over in MT.

--Logros, after his army defeats the Jaghut/Jhag in the Jhag Odhan, declaring Dassem Ultor the new First Sword, when the T'lan Imass slaughtering Aren and marching off into the Jhag Odhan occured *after* the battle at Y'Ghatan and Dassem's "death".

--(a minor one) Lorn having known Toc the Elder - her supposed age and backstory compared to when Toc would have disappeared make that rather hard to believe.

Egwene, on 18 September 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

I totally agree with D'rek that we shouldn't just take 'it is said' for a fact without finding our own supporting reasons to believe it. I would be very interested if anyone can dig up more quotes that relate to the way time passes in warrens.

Time does seem to be standing still in the Azath Houses. Rallick and Vorcan are sleeping for a very long time, yet they need no food or drink.

I don't see the Azath as actually stopping time. If it was just a time barrier, there'd be no reason for poison to become inert or anything like that. I just see it as a magic stasis effect, that preserves people the way they are, so anyone inside's cells don't die or split. You still experience time passing the same as outside, you just don't age or suffer from injuries.

Regarding your 'major time screw-ups' - I don't think they're all that major and I'm here to tell you that yes, those are almost certainly the result of the author(s) not being mindful .

Regarding this last bit:

Quote

I don't see the Azath as actually stopping time. If it was just a time barrier, there'd be no reason for poison to become inert or anything like that. I just see it as a magic stasis effect, that preserves people the way they are, so anyone inside's cells don't die or split. You still experience time passing the same as outside, you just don't age or suffer from injuries.

WTF does this mean? How is what you're describing different from time stoppping?

This post has been edited by Abyss: 19 September 2014 - 04:51 PM
Reason for edit: Be nice.

[D'rek]

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Regarding your 'major time screw-ups' - I don't think they're all that major and I'm here to tell you that yes, those are almost certainly the result of the author(s) not being mindful

Agreed.

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Regarding this last bit:

Quote

I don't see the Azath as actually stopping time. If it was just a time barrier, there'd be no reason for poison to become inert or anything like that. I just see it as a magic stasis effect, that preserves people the way they are, so anyone inside's cells don't die or split. You still experience time passing the same as outside, you just don't age or suffer from injuries.

WTF does this mean? How is what you're describing different from time stoppping?

Gothos stands outside an Azath House. Temper stands inside it, with a sword shoved through his neck. Corinn stands outside the Azath House with a sword through her neck. After 3 days Gothos (from his perspective) Gothos enters the Azath House.

Scenario A (stasis, no time dilation):
--Gothos observes 3 days of time pass, as normal, then enters the Azath House
--Corinn dies, whilst observing 3 days of time pass, as normal
--Temper does not die, and after 3 days (from his perspective) sees Gothos enter

Scenario B (stasis and time dilation):
--Gothos observes 3 days of time pass, as normal, then enters the Azath House
--Corinn dies, whilst observing 3 days of time pass, as normal
--Temper does not die, and after a month of time (from his perspective) sees Gothos enter

[Malaclypse]

alright, I get what you're saying but the authors don't think like that, at least not all the time.

Whether or not that fact is bothersome to oneself is a personal question.

But what is being communicated is time effectively stopping within an Azath House - Corinn was too far gone and didn't reach the House in time but it prolonged her dying period. It's that simple, imo

ETA: another thread killed, booya bitches!

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 26 September 2014 - 09:11 AM