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Can someone explain the magic in greater detail?

#1 User is offline   Nabirius 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 03:25 AM

So I just finished the first book in the Malazan series and I am trying to get my head around the magic a bit. In part so that I can imagine things better in the next book, and in part so that when I inevitably mod D&D for Malazan it makes sense. So here is my basic understanding there are other planes, or dimensions that have some elemental aspect like fire/wind/darkness. Mages have some innate connection to one or more of these planes and can draw energy from these planes to do magic. Also Gods rule over certain warrens, and all allied gods are part of a 'house'. But some things have me a bit confused, I was hoping people could clear it up.

Are certain traits limited by warren? For instance does say the Fire Warren do things that the Earth Warren can't, because at the moment all warrens seem capable of anything, from blasts of fire to personal enhancement. Which makes me think of mages like Dragonball Z characters, which is unhelpful.

If so, what are the properties of the of Dark, Shadow, Light, Omtose Phellack, and the dragon warren Tattersail uses?
*Omtose Phellack is particularly curious because it seemed at first that it was wind-related when the Tyrant used it. But its often called the elder ice warren, and the tyrant uses it to boil the blood of one of the Tiste Andii Soletaken, and mentions using it to repair his body. Also when he possesses (is that also due to his magic, or is it a Jaghut thing?) Mammot, he uses some grey energy that burns people to ash. This makes it seem like Omtose Phellack can do anything.

Are there differences between the magics of Priests, Mages, Shaman, Witches, Alchemists, etc?

What are wards? They seem like everyone can use them, but are they traps? Alarms? Barriers? Do their properties change based on the warren used to make them?

What do people mean by 'High'? The words high mage get thrown around frequently. At times specific warrens or houses are given the 'high' modifier, Tattersail says her wards are "High Thyr", and Shadowthrone's house is called "High House Shadow"

Do Great Ravens eat magic or something?
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#2 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:01 AM

Not to be a spoilsport, but the way magic/warrens/etc function is one of the big long slow reveals of the series, so answering many of your questions would be a big no-no right now. In other words, your understanding is exactly where it should be after completing the first book.

Wards are a little tricky but tend to function as alarms and barriers.

One thing I can confirm at this point: Great Ravens do indeed eat magic and/or something.
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#3 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:03 AM

Hoo boy.


It's a pretty complicated system, and one that gets refined a bit as the series goes on. Things like the Spar of Andii, for example, basically never come back up. However, having once done a particularly awesome thread on the theory of magic in the Malazan 'verse (sadly lost to the mists of time), I'll try to give you as clear an answer as I can (it has been a LONG time since I've done a book discussing post like this. It has also been a while since I last did a re-read :( My apologies for any obvious inaccuracies):

View PostNabirius, on 11 July 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

So I just finished the first book in the Malazan series and I am trying to get my head around the magic a bit. In part so that I can imagine things better in the next book, and in part so that when I inevitably mod D&D for Malazan it makes sense. So here is my basic understanding there are other planes, or dimensions that have some elemental aspect like fire/wind/darkness. Mages have some innate connection to one or more of these planes and can draw energy from these planes to do magic. Also Gods rule over certain warrens, and all allied gods are part of a 'house'. But some things have me a bit confused, I was hoping people could clear it up.

Are certain traits limited by warren? For instance does say the Fire Warren do things that the Earth Warren can't, because at the moment all warrens seem capable of anything, from blasts of fire to personal enhancement. Which makes me think of mages like Dragonball Z characters, which is unhelpful.


If you think of Warrens as being other realms, from which the mages draw power, you're pretty much on the right track. Yes, those realms are aspected, but the important thing to remember is that this isn't a hard-coded limit - the more creative a mage, the more variety they can get out of the power they draw.
But yes, as a general principle there is a specific set of things a mage of Thyr can do, plus "generic" applications, like wards (however these are also, in practice, limited in what type of ward they can be based on the warren used...). This stuff gets more concrete once you're past the first book.

Also bear in mind that not all mages are limited to one warren - they might be *almost* exclusively Thyr, but that doesn't mean they don't know just a bit of Denul, for example.

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If so, what are the properties of the of Dark, Shadow, Light, Omtose Phellack, and the dragon warren Tattersail uses?
*Omtose Phellack is particularly curious because it seemed at first that it was wind-related when the Tyrant used it. But its often called the elder ice warren, and the tyrant uses it to boil the blood of one of the Tiste Andii Soletaken, and mentions using it to repair his body. Also when he possesses (is that also due to his magic, or is it a Jaghut thing?) Mammot, he uses some grey energy that burns people to ash. This makes it seem like Omtose Phellack can do anything.


OK. So it pays to bear in mind that the Jaghut is a Tyrant. Capital T. It's not just a title, it's like an Ascendant. There are stuff Tyrants can do that your average Jaghut/Omtose Phellack user cannot.

(As for boiling the blood...again, this comes down to creativity. Fundamentally, Fire and Ice are both forms of heat manipulation to some extent - ergo, one can manipulate the application of "ice" magic to melt something, for example. It's also partially because the guy is literally a walking nuke - he's not limited to standard applications of magic, as he's waaaaaaaaaay more powerful and knowledgeable than 'just' being good at Omtose Phellack - he has innate power, like most Ascendants do.)

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Are there differences between the magics of Priests, Mages, Shaman, Witches, Alchemists, etc?


Oh so very much. This gets explained a lot later, so I'll let you find out yourself. :p

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What are wards? They seem like everyone can use them, but are they traps? Alarms? Barriers? Do their properties change based on the warren used to make them?


Yes, yes, yes, and...yes. Wards become less used throughout the series, and it becomes more of a standard "use magic to block magic" type thing, but there are still plenty of other applications, like using them as early warning alarms, and so forth. It's not a particularly explored dynamic, it just sort of sits there. But they are definitely affected by the Warren used.

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What do people mean by 'High'? The words high mage get thrown around frequently. At times specific warrens or houses are given the 'high' modifier, Tattersail says her wards are "High Thyr", and Shadowthrone's house is called "High House Shadow"


Right. High in terms of magic, refers to, basically, exceptionally powerful/skilled magic. A "High Mage" is one who is formally noted by the Malazan military to be wholly proficient in their warren and are vastly more powerful than cadre mages, or ordinary mages - it is also used to refer to any mage on the opposing side who is clearly their equivalent, and can be used informally elsewhere to mean basically the same thing.

When Tattersail refers to "High Thyr", she's basically stating that they are really badass.

All the main Houses of the Deck of Dragons are "High House X" - Light, Dark, Shadow, Death, etc. Nothing special about Shadow in that regard. But it's a separate usage to the "High Mage" type. It's like referring to the face cards in normal decks as Royals or something.

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Do Great Ravens eat magic or something?


...more or less. Read and Find Out. :p



Your understanding of the magic should jump about tenfold once you read book three. It has a lot of little details. :)
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<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#4 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:04 AM

View Postupworthywort, on 11 July 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

Not to be a spoilsport, but the way magic/warrens/etc function is one of the big long slow reveals of the series, so answering many of your questions would be a big no-no right now. In other words, your understanding is exactly where it should be after completing the first book.

Wards are a little tricky but tend to function as alarms and barriers.

One thing I can confirm at this point: Great Ravens do indeed eat magic and/or something.


Or you could just be vague and only give the surface details, like I have. Lazywort! :(
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Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#5 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:17 AM

Haha yah that is half true. But I'm tired. The sun is still out where you live!
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#6 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:33 PM

"Lazywort". Lol.

An interesting interview with Erikson lead to this quote regarding their magic system:

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It was generated out of the need of gaming, more than anything else. It also suited very well in what we were doing when we finally sat down to write in that world. It seemed to be a very good system. And the other thing was to just use it, and don’t explain it. That keeps the mystery. (source)


Se and co-creator ICE were huge RPGers, but also have a creative streak and they dont seem to like being told how far they can go with something, like a disdain for boundaries. Alot of what they write, you're just going to have to accept it for its face value, although there is something to be said for the sheer enjoyment - some would call it masochistic - of going down the rabbit hole (pun intended) that is trying to figure out their metaphysical system. So whereas a mediocre or or worse author would create a method of utilization for their magical prowess and insert it into their prose without worrying too much about how it works in the greater context of the system as a whole, ICE and SE will employ magic and explain (in a myriad of ways, some that confound, others that are more obvious) the context of its use within the narrative. and if they don't, they use that mystery in their story as well, thus providing a more believable system within the world the stories take place.

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Using their [GURPS] magic system as it stood, worked fine in the games, but we actually wanted to create more options. So we thought of the notions of rather than having four elements, have multiple elements. Some of those elements would be light, shadow, darkness, life and death… So all of these became the aspect of Warren’s that the characters could draw from, in terms of building up a list of spells.

Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#7 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:01 PM

I love this magic system, a creative wizard could do so much with it


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#8 User is offline   Studious Lock 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

View PostHiddenOne, on 11 July 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

I love this magic system, a creative wizard could do so much with it


Magic Missle!


Actually HO has a good point here, the limits of a warren has a lot to do with the creativity/power of the mage. A mage of Ruse might cause a flood just by controlling the water. A Serc mage couldnt do this, but could perhaps produce hurricane force winds on a coastline to get the exact same effect... Also some warrens blend together around the edges.
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#9 User is offline   Nabirius 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:53 PM

Thank you all for your responses, especially Silencer, your in explanations helped a lot. I now just have 2 questions.

First, What are the properties of light/dark/shadow? I don't really know what they can do.

Second what is the significance of being able to open multiple Warrens at once? Can you siphon of more power by opening more warrens simultaneously? Is it purely a matter of greater flexibility, as you could use both fire and wind spells? Can you mix the effects of the warrens you have open to reveal a new effect? Is it all of the above?
"You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. We don't need Him. Fuck damnation, man, fuck redemption! If we are God's unwanted children, so be it" -Tyler Durden
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#10 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:16 PM

To attempt to answer your second question, yes, being able to open more than one warren does give you access to a LOT of power. There is a lot of RAFO here, keep reading, especially MoI. The flexibililty obviously improves, but as Ho and StudiousLock have pointed out the individual mage involved influences the nature and power of the magic to a great extent.

Regarding properties of Light, Dark, Shadow, again RAFO here, some you can guess probably, like shadow and stealth maybe connected. Don't think too much on specific properties, methods, combinations and circumstances rule magic application a lot.
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#11 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:20 PM

I'd say that being able to open and control multiple warrens is only possible by mages of exceptional talent and skill - some can access more than one; but usually they stick to the ones they have an affinity and experience with.

Opening multiple warrens as the same time requires an awesome amount of control, not least because of the resulting clash between the elements.

A skilled mage can use small amounts from different warrens, and weave them subtly together for new interesting results. I'm thinking of a specific event but no spoilers, keep reading.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 11 July 2014 - 05:24 PM

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#12 User is offline   Nabirius 

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:14 PM

Thanks for all your replies
"You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. We don't need Him. Fuck damnation, man, fuck redemption! If we are God's unwanted children, so be it" -Tyler Durden
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#13 User is offline   Aertheron 

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:38 PM

View PostTraveller, on 11 July 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

I'd say that being able to open and control multiple warrens is only possible by mages of exceptional talent and skill - some can access more than one; but usually they stick to the ones they have an affinity and experience with.

Opening multiple warrens as the same time requires an awesome amount of control, not least because of the resulting clash between the elements.

A skilled mage can use small amounts from different warrens, and weave them subtly together for new interesting results. I'm thinking of a specific event but no spoilers, keep reading.


If a skilled mage can use small amounts from different warrens, then what would a character that can use several warrens in huge amounts be?
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