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Leaflet handed out in Donetsk

#1 User is offline   Stormcat 

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:17 PM

http://www.usatoday....kraine/7816951/

This scares the crap out of me. My thought is that if this is really going down, Israel will not stand by and let it happen and they won't be diplomatic about it. I would love to read the thoughts of everyone here. I am still wrapping my brain around this...
If anyone has different or more current information on this please share.

Quote

Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Ukrainian and Israeli media.

Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.

Donetsk is the site of an "anti-terrorist" operation by the Ukraine government, which has moved military columns into the region to force out militants who are demanding a referendum be held on joining Russia. The news was carried first by the Ukraine's Donbass news agency.

The leaflets bore the name of Denis Pushilin, who identified himself as chairman of "Donetsk's temporary government," and were distributed near the Donetsk synagogue and other areas, according to the reports.

Pushilin acknowledged that fliers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported in Hebrew.

Emanuel Shechter, in Israel, told Ynet his friends in Donetsk sent him a copy of the leaflet through social media.

"They told me that masked men were waiting for Jewish people after the Passover eve prayer, handed them the flier and told them to obey its instructions," he said.

The leaflet begins, "Dear Ukraine citizens of Jewish nationality," and states that all people of Jewish descent over 16 years old must report to the Commissioner for Nationalities in the Donetsk Regional Administration building and "register."

It says the reason is because the leaders of the Jewish community of Ukraine supported Bendery Junta, a reference to Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Ukrainian nationalist movement that fought for Ukrainian independence at the end of World War II, "and oppose the pro-Slavic People's Republic of Donetsk," a name adopted by the militant leadership.

The leaflet then described which documents Jews should provide: "ID and passport are required to register your Jewish religion, religious documents of family members, as well as documents establishing the rights to all real estate property that belongs to you, including vehicles."

Consequences for non-compliance will result in citizenship being revoked "and you will be forced outside the country with a confiscation of property." A registration fee of $50 would be required, it said.

Olga Reznikova, 32, a Jewish resident of Donetsk, told Ynet she never experienced anti-Semitism in the city until she saw this leaflet.

"We don't know if these notifications were distributed by pro-Russian activists or someone else, but it's serious that it exists," she said. "The text reminds of the fascists in 1941," she said referring to the Nazis who occupied Ukraine during World War II.

Morton Klein, president of the Zionist Organization of America, the oldest pro-Israel group in the USA, said the leaflets should be seen in the context of a rising tide of anti-Semitism across Europe and the world, and that it should prompt a strong response from the White House.

"This is a frightening new development in the anti-Jewish movement that is gaining traction around the world," Klein said.

Michael Salberg, director of the international affairs at the New York City-based Anti-Defamation League, said it's unclear whether the leaflets were issued by the pro-Russian leadership or a splinter group operating within the pro-Russian camp.

But the Russian side has used the specter of anti-Semitism in a cynical manner since anti-government protests began in Kiev that resulted in the ousting of Ukraine's pro-Russian former president Viktor Yanukovych. Russia and its allies in Ukraine issued multiple stories about the the threat posed to Jews by Ukraine's new pro-Western government in Kiev, Salberg said.

Those stories were based in part on ultra-nationalists who joined the Maidan protests, and the inclusion of the ultra-nationalist Svoboda party in Ukraine's new interim government. But the threat turned out to be false, he said.

Svoboda's leadership needs to be monitored, but so far it has refrained from anti-Semitic statements since joining the government, he said. And the prevalence of anti-Semitic acts has not changed since before the Maidan protests, according to the ADL and the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union, which monitors human rights in Ukraine.

Distributing such leaflets is a recruitment tool to appeal to the xenophobic fears of the majority, "to enlist them to your cause and focus on a common enemy, the Jews," Salberg said.

And by targeting Donetsk's Jews, they also send a message to all the region's residents, Salberg said.

"The message is a message to all the people that is we're going to exert our power over you," he said. "Jews are the default scapegoat throughout history for despots to send a message to the general public: Don't step out of line."


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#2 User is offline   Tarcanus 

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:31 PM

I don't know enough about the history of conflict in that area to say much, but I'm just always confused as to why Jews get shat on so much. Is it all because of the Israel/Palestine conflicts? Or is there something I'm missing? I'll admit I'm a bit ignorant.
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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:41 PM

As for Israel not standing by and letting things happen, we're talking about Russia standing in the background here. There is a reason why nobody has moved into Ukraine to secure the peace yet. Israel are quite serious about protecting their citizens but they are not going to pick a fight with Russia.

This is just an "isolated" case of anti-semitism, it's not like there's been issued a pogrom. There's plenty of hate crimes and bigotry to go around for everyone with out worrying about the Jews. As always, when society breaks down, all the assholes and would be war-chiefs come out of the wood work and start singling out the easiest targets.
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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:48 PM

This is how it starts though. Small "isolated" events and nobody does anything about it. Suddenly its bigger than anyone could have dreamed and it takes more than talks to make it right.
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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:49 PM

Why? Psychologically and philosophically its a process to exclude 'Others' whom they want to subordinate or who do not fit into their society for some reason or another. Before the idea of nation-states, Imperialism existed by subordination of the Other by the dominant empire, for land, resources, etc. And today is little different, except for the form of governments, and usually is accompanied by exploitation of the Other.

From wikipedia: "instead of understanding groups of people, and consequentially their intellectual, economic, and political capability as vital and contributory to the global community, othering renders all but one culture's ideology and systems worthless." and this forces individuals to either be of the Same or the Other - to be subjugated or to be the subjugator.

In this instance, which is absolutely no different than any other example of "Othering" throughout history has yet been proven to have originated via the pro-Russian supporters in the Ukraine, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Disgusting people exist, and I won't be the only one on here to tell you that there ain't much hope for any of us.

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:58 PM

View PostStormcat, on 17 April 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

This is how it starts though. Small "isolated" events and nobody does anything about it. Suddenly its bigger than anyone could have dreamed and it takes more than talks to make it right.


There's small isolated events of racism, misogyny and general bigotry every where all the time. In the US, Scandinavia, Israel and yes, there's plenty to go around in Eastern Russia as well. Nobody does anything about that either (generally speaking).

Ukraine is on the edge of a civil war/Invasion, this kind of stuff happens. The minorities and the political opposition either need to go under ground or they are going to have to defend themselves. No matter how bad it gets, if they start hanging Jewish people from the street lights, Israel are not going to get involved. The UN might, it depends upon Russia's reaction, but Israel is not equipped to invade Ukraine, let alone win a game of chicken with Russia.

More likely some US congress people are probably going to have Israels lobbyists on the phone non-stop.

This post has been edited by Apt Hoc: 17 April 2014 - 06:59 PM

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:13 PM

Fucking furious about this.
Declared a separatist republic, took over the local gov, and first chance they got... 'Hey... let's go all Hitler on the Jews!'.
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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:17 PM

It's an important part about creating a political narrative.

Set up puppet regime, declare yourself the moral guardian and protector the nations values, invent some historical slight or political scapegoat and blame all the worlds ills on them.

Works every time... Just ask Idi Amin, oh wait.
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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

Fucking furious about this.
Declared a separatist republic, took over the local gov, and first chance they got... 'Hey... it's Hitler time!'.


Stunning.

View PostStormcat, on 17 April 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:


...This scares the crap out of me. My thought is that if this is really going down, Israel will not stand by and let it happen and they won't be diplomatic about it. ...


Other than harsh language, and some phone calls. Israel isn't going to do a thing about this, (at least not where anyone can see them doing it) because...

View PostApt Hoc, on 17 April 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:


As for Israel not standing by and letting things happen, we're talking about Russia standing in the background here. There is a reason why nobody has moved into Ukraine to secure the peace yet.
... Israel are quite serious about protecting their citizens but they are not going to pick a fight with Russia.


Correct. And Ukrainian Jews are not Israeli citizens. It's an important distinction.

View PostTarcanus, on 17 April 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

I don't know enough about the history of conflict in that area to say much, but I'm just always confused as to why Jews get shat on so much. Is it all because of the Israel/Palestine conflicts? Or is there something I'm missing? I'll admit I'm a bit ignorant.


It's about 5000 years worth of reasons well beyond the Palestinian issue.
The really really short version tho, is that small wandering sub-tribes with limited roots in places where other tribes have longer bigger roots are easy targets when someone needs a scapegoat, victim or common enemy. This isn't restricted to Jews by any means, to be clear.

View PostApt Hoc, on 17 April 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

This is just an "isolated" case of anti-semitism, it's not like there's been issued a pogrom. There's plenty of hate crimes and bigotry to go around for everyone with out worrying about the Jews. As always, when society breaks down, all the assholes and would be war-chiefs come out of the wood work and start singling out the easiest targets.


As to this ^, i say that \/

View PostStormcat, on 17 April 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

This is how it starts though. Small "isolated" events and nobody does anything about it. Suddenly its bigger than anyone could have dreamed and it takes more than talks to make it right.


View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 17 April 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

...absolutely no different than any other example of "Othering" throughout history has yet been proven to have originated via the pro-Russian supporters in the Ukraine, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Disgusting people exist, and I won't be the only one on here to tell you that there ain't much hope for any of us.
...


..and yes it's hardly restricted to the Jews. The point, and reason for the anger, is that it's the Jews AGAIN. In that particular way, AGAIN. In that part of the world, AGAIN.
...and the last time this happened, a World War followed. And a little thing called the Holocaust.

...and before anyone lists all the other ethnic holocausts, i'm well aware of them, i could explain the distinctions, but regardless it's 21st fucking century in fucking post USSR Europe and that isn't supposed to be happening any more in my shiny world view. Fuck.
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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:38 PM

View PostAbyss, on 17 April 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:



View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 17 April 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

...absolutely no different than any other example of "Othering" throughout history has yet been proven to have originated via the pro-Russian supporters in the Ukraine, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Disgusting people exist, and I won't be the only one on here to tell you that there ain't much hope for any of us.
...


..and yes it's hardly restricted to the Jews. The point, and reason for the anger, is that it's the Jews AGAIN. In that particular way, AGAIN. In that part of the world, AGAIN.
...and the last time this happened, a World War followed. And a little thing called the Holocaust.

...and before anyone lists all the other ethnic holocausts, i'm well aware of them, i could explain the distinctions, but regardless it's 21st fucking century in fucking post USSR Europe and that isn't supposed to be happening any more in my shiny world view. Fuck.



Oh, please do not misunderstand me at all. I was not trying to diminish the targeting of the Jewish people in any way, shape or form. I was merely saying that othering is by no means rare.

It happens frequently to Jews outside of Israel because they usually are successful, own property, and stand out, yet are consistently a minority group.
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#11 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:59 PM

Israel won't start a war with Russia or the Ukraine obviously but they won't ignore it either. If they have to evacuate every Jews in the Ukraine they will and have done so before. Operation Moses, Magic carpet, many others with less memorable names. The problem is while that saves Jewish lives its still a loss. Jews should be safe in the Ukraine. As Abyss says in the 21st century, in enlightened Europe stuff like his should not be going on. It does all to often though. Its probably a bit early to be calling this Holocaust the sequel and yet it certainly bears watching. Are we really still going to be persecuting Gays and Jews and who knows whom else in fifty years? a hundred?

Recently the UN in remembrance of the Rwandan Genocide said 'never again'. It's the Jewish catch phrase in regards to the holocaust. The UN said it even as Genocide is going on the CAR and Sudan. The problem is not that these things happen, its that they happen and we do nothing but still we pat ourselves on the back as the heroes in our own story. I don't disagree with your Cynicism Apt but I do find how blase you are very concerning.
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Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:43 AM

Militant Extremists take over government buildings, declare 'freedom from reality', and then hands out leaflets that jews have to register.

What do you think is going to happen when you give extremist, power hungry people even a whiff of power? They are going to revel in their idiocy.
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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:35 PM

From what I've read this is not an actual thing going on.
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Posted 19 April 2014 - 08:19 PM

The reports are uncertain. It happened, it seems, but may have been a hoax by a fringe group and not a full blown effort by the 'revolutionary' government.Also uncertain is the degree of connection between the group and the notgov.
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Posted 19 April 2014 - 08:25 PM

They claim it's a fake. If it's real, the emphasis is on the "$50 registration fee"--this was circulated to pretty much all small businesses--separatists need $$$ to keep their "dream" alive. I doubt that there are actually people that moronic up there. Although the biggest clearly pro-Unity governor in UA (who also happens to be the president of the European Jewish Congress or somesuch-basically THE Head Jew of Europe) DID offer a $10k bounty for every captured separatists, 1k for assault rifle, 1.5k for machine gun, 2k for grenade launcher, and $200k for each admin building turned over, the same evening this leaflet got in the spotlight, so who knows. In response some Kazakh businessman offered 1 milion rubles for his head--but that's way too low a price to take it seriously.

I smiled at their idiocy--because US took it super serious and Lavrov in Geneva got backed into a corner.

That being said, in Slov'yansk there are msgs about Roma being robbed and assaulted and the "leaders" of separatists have set up a hotline to report "suspicious" people, "especially those that speak Ukrainian"! (!!!). THis last tidbit was captured on video.

Basically, this marginalizes them to the extreme. Unlike Maydan they're so keen on aping, these guys don't enjoy widespread support (though there's about 10-15% of ppl in Donbass who actively want to join Russia), and the more time passes the more their criminal roots are showing. Slov'yansk and Kramatorsk are getting cut off from food supplies, b/c truck drivers don't want to drive there, b/c "liberators" rob and "confiscate" supplies.

Unless Putin tries smth tomorrow (when no one will be rallying, cuz patriots will be celebrating Easter), next week we should see a bit of a de-escalation, as the local thugs turn on the "polite little green men" in order to try to collect some of those 10k bounties.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 19 April 2014 - 08:27 PM

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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:38 PM

Well Ment, never underestimate human stupidity, especially not coming from people who believe in racial/religious superiority/inferiority. I doubt this is actually the "Republic of so-and-so" at work (I'd assume they're way too busy phoning Moscow for directions and following up said advise), but probably some overly zealous anti-semitists with a printer and a balaklava in the attic sensing a business scam and setting themselves up as an administrative arm. I mean, all you need is a potato stamp to mimic the separatist "authority"'s sigil.

The result is a nightmare for the PR department of the pro-Russian bits of the population that are striving for separation, but this completely overshadows what happened to city-councillor Rybak, whose murder was apparently not an isolated case (he was a vocal, but peaceful opponent of the pro-Russian faction from the local establishment). The guy was abducted in broad daylight, then tortured and his remains dumped next to a road.
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 03:24 AM

View PostTapper, on 25 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Well Ment, never underestimate human stupidity, especially not coming from people who believe in racial/religious superiority/inferiority. I doubt this is actually the "Republic of so-and-so" at work (I'd assume they're way too busy phoning Moscow for directions and following up said advise), but probably some overly zealous anti-semitists with a printer and a balaklava in the attic sensing a business scam and setting themselves up as an administrative arm. I mean, all you need is a potato stamp to mimic the separatist "authority"'s sigil.

The result is a nightmare for the PR department of the pro-Russian bits of the population that are striving for separation, but this completely overshadows what happened to city-councillor Rybak, whose murder was apparently not an isolated case (he was a vocal, but peaceful opponent of the pro-Russian faction from the local establishment). The guy was abducted in broad daylight, then tortured and his remains dumped next to a road.


Several corrections

1) Rybak, may he rest in peace, was a city councillor from a former opposition party-now govt, but a tiny minority in Donbass politics. He was also a former police officer working investigations, and belonged to a nearly extinct species of an honest Donbass police officer.

2)He made headlines by repeatedly attempting to take down the DNR flag and replace it with Ukrainian flag.

3) SBU (UA's Security service) has made public intercepted radio communications featuring people they claim to be Russian GRU colonels and chief coordinators on Donbass, ordering that Rybak be "calmed down". Also starring in these is the self-proclaimed "people's mayor" of Slov'yansk who was ordered to get rid of the body (it was dumped in a river).

4) alongside Rybak was found a dead a Kyiv students, also with signs of torture.

5) Simon Ostrovsky, a Vice reporter held hostage over 2 days by Slov'yansk terrorists, has stated that he was beaten and tortured during captivity. The "officials" of terrorist-controlled Slov'yansk have confirmed that they have taken numerous hostages.

6) The selfsame "people's mayor" Ponomaryov has given an interview to a Russian site gazeta.ru, in which he dropped such gems as admitting they will resort to taking and torturing hostages (his exact words were "take them and string them by their balls")to prevent elections from taking place "in the South and East". He also stated that this is war and enemies must be destroyed. Yesterday during the ATO, Ukrainian troops have dropped a large number of leaflets instructing citizens to stay away from terrorists. Ponomaryov (the "mayor") declared that anyone found in possession of such a leaflet will be shot.

7) in their lates display of gallantry, today the separatists have beaten some kiidslocal Slov'yansk kids near their checkpoint, "because they were taking pictures of the checkpoint"

8) also today, they have kidnapped a bus full of OSCE military inspectors. There are reports that a number of people travelling through Slov'yansk were kidnapped as well.

9) it's important to note that neither the supposed DNR officials in Donetsk, the region capital, nor Moscow have said ANYTHING to condemn the actions of Ponomaryov, who insists he speaks for DNR in Slov'yansk. Luhansk, the other region making up Donbass has its own separatists, but despite having guns and taking over the main SBU building in the region, those guys have distanced themselves from the "Palestine" that is happening in Donetsk, and are now trying to "act legitimately", trying to organise a referendum on sovereignty before taking the next step and requesting a referendum on "asking for a Russian annexation. It's most likely that Luhansk oligarchs have a tight leash on their pet separatists and are now haggling w/ Kyiv, whilst in Donetsk, local lost control of the process in favour of the Kremlin.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#18 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:38 AM

Well, if nothing else he aids in making a separatist government seem more unpalatable by the majority.
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 01:14 PM

View PostMentalist, on 26 April 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

View PostTapper, on 25 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Well Ment, never underestimate human stupidity, especially not coming from people who believe in racial/religious superiority/inferiority. I doubt this is actually the "Republic of so-and-so" at work (I'd assume they're way too busy phoning Moscow for directions and following up said advise), but probably some overly zealous anti-semitists with a printer and a balaklava in the attic sensing a business scam and setting themselves up as an administrative arm. I mean, all you need is a potato stamp to mimic the separatist "authority"'s sigil.

The result is a nightmare for the PR department of the pro-Russian bits of the population that are striving for separation, but this completely overshadows what happened to city-councillor Rybak, whose murder was apparently not an isolated case (he was a vocal, but peaceful opponent of the pro-Russian faction from the local establishment). The guy was abducted in broad daylight, then tortured and his remains dumped next to a road.


Several corrections

1) Rybak, may he rest in peace, was a city councillor from a former opposition party-now govt, but a tiny minority in Donbass politics. He was also a former police officer working investigations, and belonged to a nearly extinct species of an honest Donbass police officer.

2)He made headlines by repeatedly attempting to take down the DNR flag and replace it with Ukrainian flag.

3) SBU (UA's Security service) has made public intercepted radio communications featuring people they claim to be Russian GRU colonels and chief coordinators on Donbass, ordering that Rybak be "calmed down". Also starring in these is the self-proclaimed "people's mayor" of Slov'yansk who was ordered to get rid of the body (it was dumped in a river).

4) alongside Rybak was found a dead a Kyiv students, also with signs of torture.

5) Simon Ostrovsky, a Vice reporter held hostage over 2 days by Slov'yansk terrorists, has stated that he was beaten and tortured during captivity. The "officials" of terrorist-controlled Slov'yansk have confirmed that they have taken numerous hostages.

6) The selfsame "people's mayor" Ponomaryov has given an interview to a Russian site gazeta.ru, in which he dropped such gems as admitting they will resort to taking and torturing hostages (his exact words were "take them and string them by their balls")to prevent elections from taking place "in the South and East". He also stated that this is war and enemies must be destroyed. Yesterday during the ATO, Ukrainian troops have dropped a large number of leaflets instructing citizens to stay away from terrorists. Ponomaryov (the "mayor") declared that anyone found in possession of such a leaflet will be shot.

7) in their lates display of gallantry, today the separatists have beaten some kiidslocal Slov'yansk kids near their checkpoint, "because they were taking pictures of the checkpoint"

8) also today, they have kidnapped a bus full of OSCE military inspectors. There are reports that a number of people travelling through Slov'yansk were kidnapped as well.

9) it's important to note that neither the supposed DNR officials in Donetsk, the region capital, nor Moscow have said ANYTHING to condemn the actions of Ponomaryov, who insists he speaks for DNR in Slov'yansk. Luhansk, the other region making up Donbass has its own separatists, but despite having guns and taking over the main SBU building in the region, those guys have distanced themselves from the "Palestine" that is happening in Donetsk, and are now trying to "act legitimately", trying to organise a referendum on sovereignty before taking the next step and requesting a referendum on "asking for a Russian annexation. It's most likely that Luhansk oligarchs have a tight leash on their pet separatists and are now haggling w/ Kyiv, whilst in Donetsk, local lost control of the process in favour of the Kremlin.

I meant to say he was an established politician, and indeed, anti-seperatist. My wording was a bit weird. Didn't know all that about the 'mayor' and 'republic' and indeed, what Morghy says. That's a mix of nastiness, stupidity, lawlessness and violence that makes a very explosive cocktail.
Everyone is entitled to his own wrong opinion. - Lizrad
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