[Tiste Simeon]

So,

I finished my massive reread of all 10 MBOTF and 5 NOTME books recently, and I have only got around to doing this, just sorting out my thoughts and mentioning some notable bits (AND I DON'T MEAN KARSA'S NOTABLE BITS, YOU PERVS). So here we go (Spoilers for the whole series, including all ICE books):

FAVOURITE BOOK: Prior to this reread I couldn't make my mind up, as it had bee at various times DG, MOI or TBH, but this time there was a clear winner. It has to be TTH. I mean what a book. Sure, it doesn't have the massive army convergence that other books do, but the reason we love SE so much is that he doesn't do things as expected just because it has been done before. And the fact that the ending doesn't contain a bunch of different armies does not make it an inferior ending. Oh no, the scene with Hood arriving, Dassems fight with Rake, all the stuff happening in Dragnipur, the mule fight... it is mind blowing stuff, and the book itself is a stupendously written masterpiece. I liked it before, I utterly love it now.

DISAPPOINTMENT OF THE SERIES: It has to go to OST. I don't know why but I just couldn't enjoy this book. Perhaps it was that I read it immediately after TTH, and going straight back into Darujhistan after that was bound to give me high hopes that didn't quite reach the mark... I think that I was so hyped from TTH that the follow up was almost set to fail... It could also be that there is a whole bunch of stuff on the Seguleh. The Seguleh have been my favourite people ever since we first met them in MOI and I was psyched that they were going to be in the story. I was therefore so flipping disappointed that they turned out to be the bad guys and they just knelt without questioning anything. Yeah, I get it and I understand why he also made the T'orrud Cabal also evil servants of the Tyrant. It also made the Vorcan ending scenes in GOTM make a lot more sense (and I was amazed at how it all came around again from however many books back that was!) I just didn't like it, and this ruined the rest of the book for me. I couldn't get past it. I dunno if it will hold up better on the reread but I will be leaving it for a long while before reading it again (perhaps as a standalone novel...)

"SO MUCH BETTER THAN I REMEMBER" OF THE SERIES: DOD/TCG. To be honest I as dreading reading the final two books because I struggled with them the first time round but upon reread, and with greater understanding of what had gone before, these two books are undoubtedly masterpieces. Storylines that previously bored me (e.g. The Snake) now had me enthralled. Icariums plot arc made a lot more sense. Torrents arc was more interesting. Hoods "I'm gonna bite your face off, mofo" bit had me cheering louder. Sorry for ever doubting you, Mr Erikson. I'm just not as quick as you...

BOOK THAT SURPRISED ME: BAB. I had heard a lot of negative stuff about BAB, and as I had just finished OST I wasn't expecting much. I really enjoyed. I think ICE thrives when he is writing characters and settings we haven't seen before (or at least not much of them.) I thought he handled the jungle setting very well (I also love his handling of Dassem/Traveller in the other books).

MOMENT THAT LITERALLY HAD ME CRYING: Towards the end of DG, there is a scene where Coltaine is telling Duiker that he needs to go with the fugitives to Aren, and they would be escorted by another tribe who weren't taking part in the Chain of Dogs. I was reading that on the bus and I had to put the book down. Tears were welling up and the momentous sense of tragedy that overwhelmed me was too much. I took some deep breaths, thought happy thoughts and returned to it later. I mean, I have read it before but that was something else. Maybe I was emotional anyway, but still...

BIT THAT HAD ME WEAK WITH LAUGHTER THAT SOMEHOW PASSED ME BY BEFORE: Brys thinking about Tehol's new Lether flag design in a flashback in DOD (I think) I laughed hard.

MOAR PLS: Info on QB/Ruthan Gudd. Manask and Ipshank. Any scene with Tehol and Bugg in it. Kruppe and general life in Darujhistan. Oxen and Mules. Info on the Crimson Guard (I know this will probably come in Assail...) Basically, I would love it if SE could keep writing these books forever and giving us more stories from all the different places and characters...

WHAT I NEED NOW: A good glass of scotch. Probably a bacon sandwich too.

THINGS TO DO: Oh wait, sorry, wrong thing. You can stop reading now, I think I am pretty much done here. Yup. I'm done.

[Aptorian]

I desperately want Esslemont to do a spin-off series about the wacky adventures of Ipshank and Manask.

Manask might possibly be my favorite character in the entire series.

[Stalker]

I totally agree on Blood and Bone. The jungle was very well handled and had the right feel / atmosphere to it. I was impressed and think that ICE continues to improve as an author with every book.


The way you've been talking about the massive reread in the 'what are you reading' thread has me ready to start my own reread. I've read the first 3-5 countless times in prep for the new releases, but wasn't able to keep up the pace towards the end of the series. So I haven't reread TTH, DoD, or TCG yet. A mistake I plan on fixing soon.

[Egwene]

@Simeon - Did you get a bacon sandwich??? Think you deserved it after that round-up of the series.

Glad about what you said ref TTH. I thought the build-up was amazing. Everything and everyone converging from all directions. If just one party had lost it's way... It seemed so real that that could have been possible. The scene with Rake... tears were streaming down my face as I read it, then I put the book down and buried my face in my hands and just sobbed. Over the top? Possibly, but to me the whole scene seemed so much happening in the present, I just felt the emotions of everyone there. Putting myself in Brood's place, loosing a companion of not just a few years but one of millennia... how can you not cry at that thought!

[Abyss]

Fun post. Seems like you enjoyed, tnx for sharing.

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 16 April 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

...FAVOURITE BOOK: Prior to this reread I couldn't make my mind up, as it had bee at various times DG, MOI or TBH, but this time there was a clear winner. It has to be TTH. I mean what a book. Sure, it doesn't have the massive army convergence that other books do, ...

The Army of Death vs Chaos Incarnate to assist the Chained Souls doesn't count?

[Slow Ben]

Totally agree on your thoughts of OST and BaB.


I'M CALADAN BROOD! THIS TYRANTS DONE ENOUGH IM GONNA PUT A STOP TO THIS! IM GONNA....GONNA... SMASH THIS STONE!

[Andorion]

Agree with you totlly on TTH and OST. TTh was not really my favourite book before, but after the re-read TTh just stood out. SE really shone in this book: the eriting, the description: what's not to love about the convergence? Hoods entry, Rakes entry, the moment of Rake's sacrifice.... it was mind-blowing
OST for me was weird. IT was this totally uneven book, with some good story lines: The Spawn, the Seguleh search for Dassem, and some weird storylines: the entire rise of the tyrant, the seguleh in Darujhistan, Brood doing precisely the minimum possible..
Disagree on the crying moment though. For me it was not DG, but the MoI ending, with Itkovian and Imass, Korlat and Whiskeyjack, the fall of the Bridgeburners, as well as several moments in TCG: Mappo's death, and Icarium does not recognise him, Gesler and Stormy, also the Shake on the Shore.

ONe thing that always bothered me, was the fate of Sandalath Drukorlat. I mean its pretty clear she is being badly traumatised by memories of the past, and she has numerous demons of her own, which will probably be revealed in the Kharkanas books, but at the end of TCG, all that happens is she flees to the old hostage room. Her son Orfantal is dead (how much more meaning that has after reading FoD) her daughter Korlat renounced her to join the Shake, and none of the obvious trauma she is facing from simply being back in the citadel is really dealt with.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

...ONe thing that always bothered me, was the fate of Sandalath Drukorlat...

Agreed. I put it on all her repressed memories of events on FoD and to follow, plus the delayed trauma of dying and being reborn all being brought up by the return to K-town, but it didn't quite gel in the telling, especially because she was such a strong willed and open minded character up to that point, who seemed pretty solid with Withal.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 17 April 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

...ONe thing that always bothered me, was the fate of Sandalath Drukorlat...

Agreed. I put it on all her repressed memories of events on FoD and to follow, plus the delayed trauma of dying and being reborn all being brought up by the return to K-town, but it didn't quite gel in the telling, especially because she was such a strong willed and open minded character up to that point, who seemed pretty solid with Withal.

Yes exactly. She was until then a rather strong character. But ever since she returned to Kharkanas she went into a downward spiral. But its not just the spiral that bothers me, its how it was left unresolved. The last time we see her is this:

Quote

‘Very well,’ said Phaed, ‘I will give you this … gift. Retire to the chamber in the tower, Sandalath. You know the one. Lock the door from within, so that no one else may enter. Remain there. Await your son. And when he comes, why, then you can unlock your door. To take him into your arms.’
My room. My sweet, perfect room. If I wait there. If I hide there, everything will be all right. Tears streamed down Sandalath’s face. ‘Yes,’ she whispered. ‘My son.’
‘Will you yield the throne?’ Phaed asked. ‘It must be now. Once you have done that, then you can go to your room, Sandalath. Where you will be safe, and where you can wait for him.’
There was no end, it seemed, to what could spill down from her eyes. She rose, the dagger falling to clatter on the stones. My room, yes. It’s safe there. I have the lock, there at the door. The lock, to keep me safe.
Silanah – hear me. I will see my son! They will bring him to me! But first, I must release you. Eleint, you are free.
And soon, we will all be free. All of us hostages. We will finally be free.

But her son is dead. Orfantal will never return. So what happens to Sandalath? i realize it was an emergency and getting Silanah to go on a bloody rampage against the Liosan was very badly needed, but after it was over I really expected a scene or two with Sandalath. Seems a bit rough to just abandon her to traumas most of which were not even her fault.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

...
But her son is dead. Orfantal will never return. So what happens to Sandalath? i realize it was an emergency and getting Silanah to go on a bloody rampage against the Liosan was very badly needed, but after it was over I really expected a scene or two with Sandalath. Seems a bit rough to just abandon her to traumas most of which were not even her fault.

That's the point. She gets a tragic end, wasting away, waiting for her dead son and ignored by her surviving daughter.
It certainly lines up with the Sandy we see in FoD, but not the character between MT and TCG.

[Tiste Simeon]

Hi guys thanks for all your comments I will be posting a more thorough response later but I'm on holiday at the moment so not on that often. You're all great!

[Tiste Simeon]

Apt Hoc, on 16 April 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

I desperately want Esslemont to do a spin-off series about the wacky adventures of Ipshank and Manask.

Manask might possibly be my favorite character in the entire series.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

Stalker, on 16 April 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

I totally agree on Blood and Bone. The jungle was very well handled and had the right feel / atmosphere to it. I was impressed and think that ICE continues to improve as an author with every book.


The way you've been talking about the massive reread in the 'what are you reading' thread has me ready to start my own reread. I've read the first 3-5 countless times in prep for the new releases, but wasn't able to keep up the pace towards the end of the series. So I haven't reread TTH, DoD, or TCG yet. A mistake I plan on fixing soon.

I have been called an inspiration before. It is a curse I struggle with daily.

Egwene, on 16 April 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

@Simeon - Did you get a bacon sandwich??? Think you deserved it after that round-up of the series.

Glad about what you said ref TTH. I thought the build-up was amazing. Everything and everyone converging from all directions. If just one party had lost it's way... It seemed so real that that could have been possible. The scene with Rake... tears were streaming down my face as I read it, then I put the book down and buried my face in my hands and just sobbed. Over the top? Possibly, but to me the whole scene seemed so much happening in the present, I just felt the emotions of everyone there. Putting myself in Brood's place, loosing a companion of not just a few years but one of millennia... how can you not cry at that thought!

It was a delicious bacon sandwich. Thanks for your concern.
You can tell that TTH was the most emotional for SE to write as well. You couldn't help getting swept up in the emotions he was pouring out onto the page through his characters.

Abyss, on 16 April 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Fun post. Seems like you enjoyed, tnx for sharing.

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 16 April 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

...FAVOURITE BOOK: Prior to this reread I couldn't make my mind up, as it had bee at various times DG, MOI or TBH, but this time there was a clear winner. It has to be TTH. I mean what a book. Sure, it doesn't have the massive army convergence that other books do, ...

The Army of Death vs Chaos Incarnate to assist the Chained Souls doesn't count?

I suppose that was quite epic... Having said that, it wasn't built up to the same kind of convergence like a lot of the others were (most notable example the battle for Coral). Yes, we got glimpses of "stuff happening" in Dragnipur but the convergence that we were lead to more openly was definitely the Dassem/Hood/Rake/Possibly Kallor/Possibly Karsa et al. I remember the first time I had read TTH, the stuff in Dragnipur was almost forgotten by me as I breathlessly got to the point where Dassem enters etc.

Slow Ben, on 17 April 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Totally agree on your thoughts of OST and BaB.


I'M CALADAN BROOD! THIS TYRANTS DONE ENOUGH IM GONNA PUT A STOP TO THIS! IM GONNA....GONNA... SMASH THIS STONE!

Yeah. He moped around, stated he was going to do something but because of said moping half of the city was dead or enslaved by then. I have no doubt in my head that had he acted a bit more quickly he could easily have owned the Tyrant.

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Disagree on the crying moment though. For me it was not DG, but the MoI ending, with Itkovian and Imass, Korlat and Whiskeyjack, the fall of the Bridgeburners, as well as several moments in TCG: Mappo's death, and Icarium does not recognise him, Gesler and Stormy, also the Shake on the Shore.

Well, yeah all those moments had me catching in my throat. But for whatever reason, towards the end of DG really affected me this time.

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Abyss, on 17 April 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

...ONe thing that always bothered me, was the fate of Sandalath Drukorlat...

Agreed. I put it on all her repressed memories of events on FoD and to follow, plus the delayed trauma of dying and being reborn all being brought up by the return to K-town, but it didn't quite gel in the telling, especially because she was such a strong willed and open minded character up to that point, who seemed pretty solid with Withal.

Yes exactly. She was until then a rather strong character. But ever since she returned to Kharkanas she went into a downward spiral. But its not just the spiral that bothers me, its how it was left unresolved. The last time we see her is this:

Quote

‘Very well,’ said Phaed, ‘I will give you this … gift. Retire to the chamber in the tower, Sandalath. You know the one. Lock the door from within, so that no one else may enter. Remain there. Await your son. And when he comes, why, then you can unlock your door. To take him into your arms.’
My room. My sweet, perfect room. If I wait there. If I hide there, everything will be all right. Tears streamed down Sandalath’s face. ‘Yes,’ she whispered. ‘My son.’
‘Will you yield the throne?’ Phaed asked. ‘It must be now. Once you have done that, then you can go to your room, Sandalath. Where you will be safe, and where you can wait for him.’
There was no end, it seemed, to what could spill down from her eyes. She rose, the dagger falling to clatter on the stones. My room, yes. It’s safe there. I have the lock, there at the door. The lock, to keep me safe.
Silanah – hear me. I will see my son! They will bring him to me! But first, I must release you. Eleint, you are free.
And soon, we will all be free. All of us hostages. We will finally be free.

But her son is dead. Orfantal will never return. So what happens to Sandalath? i realize it was an emergency and getting Silanah to go on a bloody rampage against the Liosan was very badly needed, but after it was over I really expected a scene or two with Sandalath. Seems a bit rough to just abandon her to traumas most of which were not even her fault.

Abyss, on 17 April 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Andorion, on 17 April 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

...
But her son is dead. Orfantal will never return. So what happens to Sandalath? i realize it was an emergency and getting Silanah to go on a bloody rampage against the Liosan was very badly needed, but after it was over I really expected a scene or two with Sandalath. Seems a bit rough to just abandon her to traumas most of which were not even her fault.

That's the point. She gets a tragic end, wasting away, waiting for her dead son and ignored by her surviving daughter.
It certainly lines up with the Sandy we see in FoD, but not the character between MT and TCG.

To the above quotes, I agree. I dunno how she got from being this strong character to being that. I guess "repressed memories" will have to do. I imagine she will be looked after by the survivors, Nimander is not cruel. Unless she died in that tower, which is possible...

[D'rek]

Sandalath's storyline is sad, but I never felt her change in personality was unreasonable. IMO, she's like someone with severe PTSD who has been coping with it for a long time but then in DoD/TCG she's sent back into the warzone. It makes sense to me that once she is back there everything comes crashing back and she can't handle it. I do sorta agree about there not being another scene with her, but I think the end of her story would be just as tragic with or without another scene of her, as neither Nimander nor Korlat can do anything to help her. So one more scene with her would not have made a ton of difference, IMO, and we can safely assume that even if we don't see it Nimander is the kind of guy who wouldn't just completely ignore her locked away in that room.