Malazan Empire: The Watch vs Tavore vs Hood vs S&G vs Brys&Co - Malazan Empire

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The Watch vs Tavore vs Hood vs S&G vs Brys&Co Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   kuddukan 

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

So after finishing the 10 book series for the first time, I really felt that the strongest ending to me was for The Watch.

The Watch standing on the First Shore was so epic for me it blew Tavore's ending out of the water.

Hood eating the face off the FA and then marching up the ice bridge to the Spire was only slightly less epic.

Stormy & Gesler with the KCCM was super epic but not so much as The Watch.

Brys&Co and Tavore&Co for me, strangely felt like the least epic of the endings. I kept expecting something more from Tavore, even up to the end. Yes, I know her plans worked, but the execution in the storyline was not as impactful to me as the other ones mentioned above.
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#2 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:39 PM

So to sum up you would say the book as a whole was mostly epic with a few storylines that were only somewhat epic? That would be in line with other ratings I've seen, which tend to be on average 4.3 out of 5 epic stars, or an 85% fresh rating on Epic Tomatoes. As far as Tavore goes, I guess it's like Shakespeare said: "Some are born epic, some achieve epicness, and some have epicness thrust upon them."
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#3 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:16 PM

View Postkuddukan, on 15 April 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

So after finishing the 10 book series for the first time, I really felt that the strongest ending to me was for The Watch.

The Watch standing on the First Shore was so epic for me it blew Tavore's ending out of the water.

Hood eating the face off the FA and then marching up the ice bridge to the Spire was only slightly less epic.

Stormy & Gesler with the KCCM was super epic but not so much as The Watch.

Brys&Co and Tavore&Co for me, strangely felt like the least epic of the endings. I kept expecting something more from Tavore, even up to the end. Yes, I know her plans worked, but the execution in the storyline was not as impactful to me as the other ones mentioned above.


Tavore doesn't care.
That summarizes her character.
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#4 User is offline   kuddukan 

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:09 AM

View Postnacht, on 15 April 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

View Postkuddukan, on 15 April 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

So after finishing the 10 book series for the first time, I really felt that the strongest ending to me was for The Watch.

The Watch standing on the First Shore was so epic for me it blew Tavore's ending out of the water.

Hood eating the face off the FA and then marching up the ice bridge to the Spire was only slightly less epic.

Stormy & Gesler with the KCCM was super epic but not so much as The Watch.

Brys&Co and Tavore&Co for me, strangely felt like the least epic of the endings. I kept expecting something more from Tavore, even up to the end. Yes, I know her plans worked, but the execution in the storyline was not as impactful to me as the other ones mentioned above.


Tavore doesn't care.
That summarizes her character.


I can't tell if this is a serious or sarcastic remark?
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#5 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:52 AM

Regarding Tavore, I am reminded of a classification of historical "Heroes" in a really old RTS game called Empire Earth. There were warrior heroes who would wade into the fighting and there were strategic heroes who preferred a more cerebral approach. Tavore has always struck me as a strategic hero or as was remarked in HoC 'Cold Steel'. So where a Yedan Derryg would decapitate dragons with a Hust sword, or Hood would splat Forkrul Assail all over the Spire, that is just not Tavore's style. Remember, the ultimate part of the convergence, the unchaining of the Crippled God happened because the Marines and the Heavies, dispatched by Tavore, held off a Forkrul Assail assault force long enough.

As for Tavore not caring,....dude did you read the part where she reunites with Ganoes Paran???????

"I couldn't save her Ganoes!"

or where she sheds her blood with Maels gift to bring water into the Glass desert?

Apropos of the above, does it strike anyone that the Bonehunters have a habit of flooding deserts they march into?
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#6 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:30 AM

I think nacht meant Tavore couldn't care less about the opinions of "witnesses" (in this particular case, readers). She had a job to do and she did it. Pretty epic self control.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#7 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:08 AM

View Postworry, on 16 April 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I think nacht meant Tavore couldn't care less about the opinions of "witnesses" (in this particular case, readers). She had a job to do and she did it. Pretty epic self control.


I was going to type up a long response but Worry as usual captured it succinctly.

View Postkuddukan, on 16 April 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

I can't tell if this is a serious or sarcastic remark?


It was cryptic and to some extent sarcastic. Sorry for that.

The greatness in this Tavore scene is not in the action, but the way her sacrifice and her leadership (and the effect it has on others) is presented and finally as Andorion said, in her emotional release.
She is ready to sacrifice herself and the BH so that Fiddler and Co. can release the Crippled god. She gives away her Otataral sword, has no mages and yet despite the hopeless situation, the soldiers rally to her cause, and soldiers we have not heard off fight to join her.
In addition, clearly several people rally to personally help her (Ruthan, Lostara, Badalle in her epic showdown)

I feel, "showy" is not the same as "epic" and "power" is not the same as "strength".
In my view, her actions were the most epic of them all but doing it in a showy manner would be out of character for her.
She is the "Queen of Chains" in that despite her limitations, the relationships she has to sacrifice and the obstructions she has to face, she completes her mission because of her inner strength.

This post has been edited by nacht: 16 April 2014 - 05:10 AM

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#8 User is offline   Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai 

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:51 AM

Stormy and Gesler have the best ending for me. I have a special place in my heart for dogs and the fact that he threw his punch to save the dog truly broke my heart and I loved the series tenfold because of it. I am welling up just thinking about it!

The part where Korlat goes to the crypt of Whiskeyjack is so touching and heartbreaking it hurts to remember. I have never read or seen a scene filled with more emotion than that scene.

Also, whiskeyjack on the hill waiting for Korlat is absolutely classic romance, but done right, and not cheesy IMO and only serves to strengthen the stories and feelings we feel for these characters.

The shore is pretty sick I agree, but I still prefered the main scene with ice spire

Those are my quickly summed up feelings about the ending anyways :-)
"There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail — should we fall — we will know that we have lived." ― Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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#9 User is offline   Tony-t 

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:39 PM

View PostAndorion, on 16 April 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Regarding Tavore, I am reminded of a classification of historical "Heroes" in a really old RTS game called Empire Earth. There were warrior heroes who would wade into the fighting and there were strategic heroes who preferred a more cerebral approach. Tavore has always struck me as a strategic hero or as was remarked in HoC 'Cold Steel'. So where a Yedan Derryg would decapitate dragons with a Hust sword, or Hood would splat Forkrul Assail all over the Spire, that is just not Tavore's style. Remember, the ultimate part of the convergence, the unchaining of the Crippled God happened because the Marines and the Heavies, dispatched by Tavore, held off a Forkrul Assail assault force long enough.

As for Tavore not caring,....dude did you read the part where she reunites with Ganoes Paran???????

"I couldn't save her Ganoes!"

or where she sheds her blood with Maels gift to bring water into the Glass desert?

Apropos of the above, does it strike anyone that the Bonehunters have a habit of flooding deserts they march into?

problem was that scene with ganoes was a page long.... should have been a whole chapter
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#10 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 03:58 PM

I agree that the Watch had the most epic ending. Even though I never really cared for the Shake and even at one point I hoped they would all die*, their fight was the most intensive of all the ending battles. Yedan's badassery combined with the feeling of hopelesness and impending failure really made it shine.

* Steven Erikson has an uncanny ability to make me root for characters/groups that I disliked at first. Luckily, there is always Mallick Rel and Errant to hate :)

Tavore's fight was great, though not as epic. But I really couldn't get into the K'chain/T'lan vs human/watered army. First, a small disclaimer: I think that the Pure Assail are incredibly dangerous when you think about it. And their human armies were severly outnumbering K'chain, though I don't remember actual numbers. But with all the strength/speed/durability of K'chain and T'lan Imass it was really hard for me to feel like they are in mortal danger from human cannon fodder. The build up of both races throughout the books was just too big. As a large scale battle - ok, but nothing more. However, on a personal level (Hood,Gesler&Stormy) - as good as it gets.
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#11 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:55 PM

Hmm, which units of epicness are you going with though? American? Metric? It can be tricky for comparison purposes.
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#12 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 08:55 PM

For comparison purposes, I use the most epic unit of epicness, 1 Corabb (1 CRB), defined as 'the amount of balls in relation to the actual power'.
Thus, the Watch gets 0.8 CRB for fighting a losing battle against a foe superior in numbers, fighting ability and magical creatures. 0.1 point subtracted for using gimmicky magical sword and another 0.1 for not being Corabb.
Tavore gets 0.5 CRB. A good fight, but she has quite a number of badasses in her army, some last-minute allies as well as surprising amount of intel.
K'chain/T'lan combo gets 0.2 CRB for being epic creatures but having trouble with human fodder.
Gesler & Stormy get 0.9 CRB each.

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 16 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

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