[Sturds]

My first post on this forum, been a massive Malazan fan for ages. Was just thinking up battles and wondered how this would turn out.

[Sturds]

Reasons behind your votes?

[Aptorian]

This is a strange fight. Why would Dassem ever team up with Hood? His grief has driven him past the breaking point.

Anyway, if it actually came down to a fight I would put my money on Hood and Dassem. Dassem could most likely take Draconus in a sword fight. Maybe. He'd have a chance anyway. And Hood could probably, maybe, match Draconus in terms of magical power and skill. The combined strength of the two I think would be enough to take out the Elder God.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Hood can probably do some decent swordfighting aswell mind you. Maybe they have an edge? I recall Rake and Draconus fought to a standstill. if Rake can beat Draconus using grief maybe Dassem would aswell. But if Draconus used warrens, I am certain even hood would get overwhelmed. He was first consort afterall, figured out how to beat chaos and such and such. I think only Gothos knows more on Warrens and power.

[Brujah]

Draconus - fighting main-handed until Dassem goes down, then fighting offhanded to finish Hood

[Aptorian]

Honestly, I would put Hood up against Draconus, with or without Dassem. He's a couple generations older than Raest the most feared Tyrant, lead a war against Death, giving him the title Lord of Hosts, was the King of Ice and became the King of Death. In terms of achievements I don't think there are any of the gods or ascendants that have as impressive a resume.

[Kanese S's]

Hood and Dassem. Hood is nothing to be trifled with, even by himself.

I can't see the two of them ever teaming up, though.

[Sturds]

Just for the purpose of the fight, they struck a deal to work together. Sorry if it's a bad choice

[Brujah]

If anyone could win a 2 vs 1 fight, it would/should be Draconus. In the series, one of the most awesome fight scenes is when Draconus rapes the shit out of Kilmandaros and The Errant in an infamous 2 on 1. Kilmandaros is the Elder Goddess of the Forkrul Assail, who are one of the most powerful races in the entire series. The Errant isn't necessarily one of the most powerful Gods, but he is extremely old and does possess great power. The fact that Draconus literally destroys them with extreme ease speaks to how super powerful he is, and as one of the only Gods we see fight a 2 on 1 against other powerful gods also speaks to why I say Draconus would win.

Draconus, facing both Dassem and Hood, would realize he would have to dispatch one of them very quickly in order to win. Dassem would most likely seek to close distance with Draconus as soon as a fight began, and this is when and where I say Draconus would unleash hell on Dassem, raping him almost instantly. Dassem's charred body, damaged by Draconus unleashing his Warren in full leaves Dassem hurt very bad as he nears, and Draconus simply finishes him off with a single parry and thrust through the heart.

After a literal sword-raping of Dassem, Draconus then faces off against Hood, and this I say is actually fairly close. Hood being a top 5 badass definitely gives Draconus a good run, but it's DRACONUS.

Hood goes down.

Draconus walks away, leaving both bodies smoking in the distance, while wiping Dassem's blood off on the smooth leather of his wrist-guard.


I don't think Dassem being part of this fight makes any difference. The true battle would be between Draconus and Hood, and Draconus is vastly more powerful than Dassem. This is why I say Dassem gets raped right away and is a non-factor, then the true battle would take place. There's not many I'd say wins against Hood, but Draconus is definitely one.

[Aptorian]

Brujah, on 04 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

when Draconus rapes the shit out of Kilmandaros and The Errant

Brujah, on 04 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Draconus would unleash hell on Dassem, raping him almost instantly.

Brujah, on 04 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

After a literal sword-raping of Dassem

Brujah, on 04 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

This is why I say Dassem gets raped right away and is a non-factor

... I hate you.

EDIT: To add an actually constructive comment.

I think you underestimate Dassem. I could imagine that Draconus might actually be better than Dassem with a sword, it's possible, but he's not a pushover. With grief in his hand, nothing magical is going to touch him. Furthermore even with out the swords power he would probably be hard to take down. You have to take into account that in the Malazan universe the strongest power is not the warrens but the will of the character or god. Dassem is a very scary, very determined man. To the point that he makes the active gods very afraid.

Rake seemed to outclass him but Rake also beat Draconus.

What ever the case, Dassem and Hood are far more potent than Kilmandaros or Knuckles were. Hood and Dassem are in their prime. Killy and Knuckles were shadows of their former selves. Furthermore Draconus didn't actually fight them. He took them out with out struggle.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 04 February 2014 - 09:56 PM

[worry]

I should neg rep you for adding that edit, but I won't.

[Aptorian]

I apologise.

[Luperci]

Brujah, on 04 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

If anyone could win a 2 vs 1 fight, it would/should be Draconus. In the series, one of the most awesome fight scenes is when Draconus rapes the shit out of Kilmandaros and The Errant in an infamous 2 on 1. Kilmandaros is the Elder Goddess of the Forkrul Assail, who are one of the most powerful races in the entire series. The Errant isn't necessarily one of the most powerful Gods, but he is extremely old and does possess great power. The fact that Draconus literally destroys them with extreme ease speaks to how super powerful he is, and as one of the only Gods we see fight a 2 on 1 against other powerful gods also speaks to why I say Draconus would win.

Draconus, facing both Dassem and Hood, would realize he would have to dispatch one of them very quickly in order to win. Dassem would most likely seek to close distance with Draconus as soon as a fight began, and this is when and where I say Draconus would unleash hell on Dassem, raping him almost instantly. Dassem's charred body, damaged by Draconus unleashing his Warren in full leaves Dassem hurt very bad as he nears, and Draconus simply finishes him off with a single parry and thrust through the heart.

After a literal sword-raping of Dassem, Draconus then faces off against Hood, and this I say is actually fairly close. Hood being a top 5 badass definitely gives Draconus a good run, but it's DRACONUS.

Hood goes down.

Draconus walks away, leaving both bodies smoking in the distance, while wiping Dassem's blood off on the smooth leather of his wrist-guard.


I don't think Dassem being part of this fight makes any difference. The true battle would be between Draconus and Hood, and Draconus is vastly more powerful than Dassem. This is why I say Dassem gets raped right away and is a non-factor, then the true battle would take place. There's not many I'd say wins against Hood, but Draconus is definitely one.

I gotta agree, while Dassem was a master swordsman on the battlefield what gave him ascendant powers was Rake's old sword, his inability to die thanks to the Imass becoming Dessembrae and his Vengeance against Hood. Aside from that he is a mortal man and Hood is a Elder Jaghut who won the Throne of Death, very accomplishing but Draconus is an Elder God, Eleint, forger of Dragnipur, Consort to Mother Dark and wielder of a sword that rivals the one he forged to hold the gate of darkness. It's really no contest even though I love Dassem, the man played the part of an Andii living among name and rose to the number 2 position beside Mother Dark just cause he wanted to who knows how long he has been alive.

[Aptorian]

I have a bunch of quarrels with your arguments.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

I gotta agree, while Dassem was a master swordsman on the battlefield

As far as we know and have heard, after the death of Rake, Dassem is the best sword fighter in the world. Period. He's the first sword. His skill and potential is something that the Gods know about and fear. Consider that Cotillion and Shadowthrone were afraid to even talk to the man, Cotillion is the Saint of Killers for Christs sake.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

what gave him ascendant powers was Rake's old sword,

No he was ascended or ascending before he got his hands on vengeance. We see this in NoK when he throws a man like a horseshoe. Vengeance doesn't make you an ascendant, it is powered by the strength of the wielders will.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

his inability to die thanks to the Imass becoming Dessembrae and his Vengeance against Hood.

Personally I go by the theory that when he returns from the edge of death in NoK it is either because Hood is so scared of him that he doesn't even want his ghost in the Death Warren or vice versa, it is because Dassem is so pissed off with Hood that he refuses to enter Hoods realm.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Aside from that he is a mortal man

No he is an ascendant. There's a very big difference between having some charms and a magical sword and being an ascendant. Dassem has a mountain of potential.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

and Hood is a Elder Jaghut who won the Throne of Death, very accomplishing but Draconus is an Elder God

I would argue that from what we know a Tyrant level Jaghut is every bit as dangerous and powerful as an Elder God. Consider that the Errant and Knuckles ran to another continent in fear of Hoods response.

Jaghut can create life, they can destroy continents, they can cheat death and the can create matter out of magic. Hood is arguably the most powerful or second most powerful Jaghut ever, depending upon how strong you might suspect Gothos is.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Eleint

Those things die in drows all the time.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

forger of Dragnipur, Consort to Mother Dark

None of those things are merrits of strength in a punch-up.

Ronin, on 05 February 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

and wielder of a sword that rivals the one he forged to hold the gate of darkness.

Says who? That sword he has in TCG is more likely a manifestation of will.

It took Draconus 300,000 years to create Dragnipur (give or take a couple thousand years), it was made using Burns hammer and stealing the souls of the most powerful beings around... that thing he wields now is no where near the power of Dragnipur.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Yeah Apt is spot on here. Dassem is the first sword not just in title but in efficacy. He, like Tool, wields a warren of immense power just by presence. Dont forget the worship that surrounds him, or atleast what he represents. He is more or less like a God of tragedy. He inherits the title from the Imass and manifests it in modern times. Tool was so powerful in renewed undeath he made Olar Ethil fear him. She was strong enough to Rival any of the current ascendants ie. Silchus, Hood etc in magical power.

IRT the Elient...I point to Orfantal and Kallor or Yedan and the liosan. The sword masters are more than just sword masters, often trumping mass power with finesse, speed and surgical accuracy. Their discipline manifests when they ascend in a bleeding of focused power or will as Apt puts it. The likes of ST and Cottilion can travel into the heart of darkness with their hold of power protecting them. Dassem theoretically can do the same. Draconus unleashing darkness is no different in power from Rake allowing Dragnipur to unleash itself in Darujhistan.

Dassem didn't even blink an eye at the tremendous strength Anomander wields. Its very unlikely Draconus would be able to face him and Hood with complete impunity.

This post has been edited by Dolmen Weeks: 05 February 2014 - 08:12 AM

[Brujah]

Dassem is the First Sword.

The First Sword to get raped by Draconus if he came stepping.

Rake only beat Draconus because Draconus was cursed by Kallor, and Rake was toying with Dassem. Both Rake and Draconus are far above Dassem imo. And after Draconus was freed from Draginpur he came back to the world by killing two entire armies by entering. Entering.

Draconus > Rake > Hood + Dassem > Wolverine

[Brujah]

Dolmen Weeks, on 05 February 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yeah Apt is spot on here. Dassem is the first sword not just in title but in efficacy. He, like Tool, wields a warren of immense power just by presence. Dont forget the worship that surrounds him, or atleast what he represents. He is more or less like a God of tragedy. He inherits the title from the Imass and manifests it in modern times. Tool was so powerful in renewed undeath he made Olar Ethil fear him. She was strong enough to Rival any of the current ascendants ie. Silchus, Hood etc in magical power.

IRT the Elient...I point to Orfantal and Kallor or Yedan and the liosan. The sword masters are more than just sword masters, often trumping mass power with finesse, speed and surgical accuracy. Their discipline manifests when they ascend in a bleeding of focused power or will as Apt puts it. The likes of ST and Cottilion can travel into the heart of darkness with their hold of power protecting them. Dassem theoretically can do the same. Draconus unleashing darkness is no different in power from Rake allowing Dragnipur to unleash itself in Darujhistan.

Dassem didn't even blink an eye at the tremendous strength Anomander wields. Its very unlikely Draconus would be able to face him and Hood with complete impunity.

Dassem didn't blink an eye when fighting Rake? What series are you reading. Rake was standing over Hood's headless body, and this angered Dassem enough to fight Rake. It was Rake's plot to be put inside Draginpur by Dassem. It's widely believed that Rake allowed himself to lose to Dassem, which only meant he had to allow Dassem to cut him with his own blade. No, Dassem would have gotten raped, or 'Raked' even, by Rake if it had been Rake wanting to win. He wasn't even fighting to win.

Draconus only loses to Rake by being cut by Draginpur , which happened because Kallor killed hundreds of thousands of his own people for the power to level curses against Draconus , Nightchill, and K'rul.

Draconus > Rake >>>>>> Hood >>>>>>>>> Dassem > Wolverine

[Dolmen 2.0]

Brujah, on 05 February 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Dolmen Weeks, on 05 February 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yeah Apt is spot on here. Dassem is the first sword not just in title but in efficacy. He, like Tool, wields a warren of immense power just by presence. Dont forget the worship that surrounds him, or atleast what he represents. He is more or less like a God of tragedy. He inherits the title from the Imass and manifests it in modern times. Tool was so powerful in renewed undeath he made Olar Ethil fear him. She was strong enough to Rival any of the current ascendants ie. Silchus, Hood etc in magical power.

IRT the Elient...I point to Orfantal and Kallor or Yedan and the liosan. The sword masters are more than just sword masters, often trumping mass power with finesse, speed and surgical accuracy. Their discipline manifests when they ascend in a bleeding of focused power or will as Apt puts it. The likes of ST and Cottilion can travel into the heart of darkness with their hold of power protecting them. Dassem theoretically can do the same. Draconus unleashing darkness is no different in power from Rake allowing Dragnipur to unleash itself in Darujhistan.

Dassem didn't even blink an eye at the tremendous strength Anomander wields. Its very unlikely Draconus would be able to face him and Hood with complete impunity.

Dassem didn't blink an eye when fighting Rake? What series are you reading. Rake was standing over Hood's headless body, and this angered Dassem enough to fight Rake. It was Rake's plot to be put inside Draginpur by Dassem. It's widely believed that Rake allowed himself to lose to Dassem, which only meant he had to allow Dassem to cut him with his own blade. No, Dassem would have gotten raped, or 'Raked' even, by Rake if it had been Rake wanting to win. He wasn't even fighting to win.

Draconus only loses to Rake by being cut by Draginpur , which happened because Kallor killed hundreds of thousands of his own people for the power to level curses against Draconus , Nightchill, and K'rul.

Draconus > Rake >>>>>> Hood >>>>>>>>> Dassem > Wolverine

1) I said "Blink of an eye at his strength". Nothing about Dassems emotional response. Its an idiom I'm using here. I'm simply saying Dassem did not succumb to Rakes power and pressure.

2) If I throw a rock at you and you choose to get hit...how is this evidence you are good enough to catch said rock and throw it back at me landing a perfect hit on my head? exactly, its not. Your logic just doesn't hold water. Just because Rake let Dassem kill him does not mean Rake was good enough to turn the battle on its head.

3) "Draconus only loses to Rake by being hit by Dragnipur...Because Kallor...curses...Draconus..."

So how is this saying anything about Draconus and his ability to beat Rake? Draconus is cursed. I agree, He isn't as powerful as he was. The fact Rake took advantage of this, using Dragnipur to kill the Elder God is just a fact as to how Rake beat Draconus. Its a fact that shows a lack in foresight on the Elder Gods part. He let himself get Trumped by his own sword. He let it happen and reaped the consequences. The battle was still even imo. I don't think Rake had much practice with the God-killing-Metaphysically-draining-badass-incarnation-of-the-gateway-to-chaos. How Draconus couldn't take advantage of Rakes inexperience with a sword THAT powerfull and difficult to handle is just another finger pointing at Rakes supremacy over Draconus. (atleast thats how I look at it)

Rake beat the old God because old doesn't have to mean more powerful, it just means more Brutal. Technique tends to trumps Brute force and Dassem and Rake both have more of it than Draconus who as you already highlighted, is quite diminished.

Hey just to be clear here, I think Draconus is more powerful than Dassem. I just don't think its this huge gulf you seem to think it is.

This post has been edited by Dolmen Weeks: 05 February 2014 - 05:23 PM

[Brujah]

Dolmen Weeks, on 05 February 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Brujah, on 05 February 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Dolmen Weeks, on 05 February 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yeah Apt is spot on here. Dassem is the first sword not just in title but in efficacy. He, like Tool, wields a warren of immense power just by presence. Dont forget the worship that surrounds him, or atleast what he represents. He is more or less like a God of tragedy. He inherits the title from the Imass and manifests it in modern times. Tool was so powerful in renewed undeath he made Olar Ethil fear him. She was strong enough to Rival any of the current ascendants ie. Silchus, Hood etc in magical power.

IRT the Elient...I point to Orfantal and Kallor or Yedan and the liosan. The sword masters are more than just sword masters, often trumping mass power with finesse, speed and surgical accuracy. Their discipline manifests when they ascend in a bleeding of focused power or will as Apt puts it. The likes of ST and Cottilion can travel into the heart of darkness with their hold of power protecting them. Dassem theoretically can do the same. Draconus unleashing darkness is no different in power from Rake allowing Dragnipur to unleash itself in Darujhistan.

Dassem didn't even blink an eye at the tremendous strength Anomander wields. Its very unlikely Draconus would be able to face him and Hood with complete impunity.

Dassem didn't blink an eye when fighting Rake? What series are you reading. Rake was standing over Hood's headless body, and this angered Dassem enough to fight Rake. It was Rake's plot to be put inside Draginpur by Dassem. It's widely believed that Rake allowed himself to lose to Dassem, which only meant he had to allow Dassem to cut him with his own blade. No, Dassem would have gotten raped, or 'Raked' even, by Rake if it had been Rake wanting to win. He wasn't even fighting to win.

Draconus only loses to Rake by being cut by Draginpur , which happened because Kallor killed hundreds of thousands of his own people for the power to level curses against Draconus , Nightchill, and K'rul.

Draconus > Rake >>>>>> Hood >>>>>>>>> Dassem > Wolverine

1) I said "Blink of an eye at his strength". Nothing about Dassems emotional response. Its an idiom I'm using here. I'm simply saying Dassem did not succumb to Rakes power and pressure.

2) If I throw a rock at you and you choose to get hit...how is this evidence you are good enough to catch said rock and throw it back at me landing a perfect hit on my head? exactly, its not. Your logic just doesn't hold water. Just because Rake let Dassem kill him does not mean Rake was good enough to turn the battle on its head.

3) "Draconus only loses to Rake by being hit by Dragnipur...Because Kallor...curses...Draconus..."

So how is this saying anything about Draconus and his ability to beat Rake? Draconus is cursed. I agree, He isn't as powerful as he was. The fact Rake took advantage of this, using Dragnipur to kill the Elder God is just a fact as to how Rake beat Draconus. Its a fact that shows a lack in foresight on the Elder Gods part. He let himself get Trumped by his own sword. He let it happen and reaped the consequences. The battle was still even imo. I don't think Rake had much practice with the God-killing-Metaphysically-draining-badass-incarnation-of-the-gateway-to-chaos. How Draconus couldn't take advantage of Rakes inexperience with a sword THAT powerfull and difficult to handle is just another finger pointing at Rakes supremacy over Draconus. (atleast thats how I look at it)

Rake beat the old God because old doesn't have to mean more powerful, it just means more Brutal. Technique tends to trumps Brute force and Dassem and Rake both have more of it than Draconus who as you already highlighted, is quite diminished.

Hey just to be clear here, I think Draconus is more powerful than Dassem. I just don't think its this huge gulf you seem to think it is.

My logic doesn't hold water? It makes perfect sense. You brought up the fight between Rake and Dassem as your basis that you believed Dassem could hold his own against Rake. I only used evidence given directly by you for my rebuttal. You can't use the fight between Rake and Dassem as any proof of how powerful Dassem is, then turn around and say my argument doesn't hold water for using the same exact evidence. Hypocrites much?

I only pointed out that the fight between Rake and Dassem, in which its written about how Rake planned the entire scenario out, as basis for Dassem's strength vs Rake. This has nothing to do with 'allowing a rock' to hit. If it were as simple as that, maybe. But its not. The fact is that Rake went into that fight vs Dassem wanting to lose. He needed to get inside Draginpur. This negates your earlier argument about Dassem not blinking am eye at Rakes power. Rake didn't use his full power. He can't lose if he had killed Dassem. No, this fight in itself doesn't prove Rake could defeat Dassem, it only disproves your argument on Dassem's ability to withstand Rake.

However, I still stand that Rake could have easily defeated Dassem had he went into it guns blazing. He had also already killed Hood, the other half of this pairing, although Hood agreed to take part in Rakes ploy. Therefore we have Rake > Dassem. Easily, imo. I also state I believe that Draconus emerged from Draginpur as the top dog on the planet. Head Honcho. King Cheese. He takes out two armies in seconds, and rapes the everloving shit out of Kilmandaros and The Errant.

The second part of my argument is that Draconus only lost to Rake because of Kallor's curse, which condemned Draconus to being defeated by his on blade. This evidence plus the fact that Draconus appears to be much stronger once emerging from Draginpur after so long, leads me to believe Draconus would defeat Rake. Therefore I definitely submit that Draconus defeats both Dassem and Hood exactly as I portrayed earlier. He would rape Dassem right away so he could focus all his power on Hood, who I do admit would give Draconus the best fight except for Rake or Gothos.

Draconus is in my opinion, top dawg. Followed closely by Rake, Hood, and Gothos. Match Hood and Dassem against anyone else except maybe Rake, and they win. The OP chose who he did for valid reasons. Draconus would be one of the only people vs both Hood and Dassem in which it wouldn't even need to be considered.

[Aptorian]

Seriously, Brujah, is there any way I could convince you to stop using rape as an adjective?

You sound like a fucking child.

EDIT: Sorry that was mean. What I meant was that I want to reach through the internet and stab you with an icepick. In a non threatening way of course.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 05 February 2014 - 07:20 PM