[Whiskeyjackuk]

Having just marched through DG and seeing the troubles Felisin, Heboric and Baudin suffer. Yes, Felisin sold herself to help Heboric and Baudin get better treatment. Or did she? I wonder if she did it partly to abuse herself for her sister's treatment of her, in selling her. Or if she did it purely for company.

What did seriously tick me off was her feelings for Beneth, and wanting him to leave with the three of them. And her not believing Baudin when he claimed that they got not better treatment. Her treatment of heboric and Baudin once they had left the mines got cruel and vicious. Showing her to be somewhat shallow and self-centered. Something is broken in her I think. She's had a tough time her sister turned her back on her, and on Ganoes, whom everyone believes is dead. Is she - Felisin - crying out for attention, or a victim of the Empire? Maybe a bit of both. It's bits like this that make the series delving into characters and their past.

[Illuyankas]

She was a naive, what, fifteen year old? girl enduring a trip to hell on the good ship MES Constant Rape, why do you think horrible trauma leading to decisions that are not healthy would be an unlikely consequence?

[worry]

You could divide the world into people who sympathize with Felisin and those who don't, slaughter the entirety of the latter group along with their families (two generations in both directions), and instantly improve the planet a hundredfold. That's my take on the character, at least.

[D'iversify]

Erikson's never been one to deal with simplistic dichotomies and his characters are intended to be multi-faceted and sometimes ambiguous. I think the point with Felisin here is that Erikson doesn't want to present her as a simple victim because, frankly, a lot of victims aren't simple in that manner - many people emerge from trauma as thoroughly unpleasant. What is to be remembered is that Felisin's actions, however cruel, always operate within the context of her being psychologically and physically scarred, but at the same time empathising with a victim does not entail excusing them for the wrong that they do.

[AlanH]

worry, on 28 December 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

You could divide the world into people who sympathize with Felisin and those who don't, slaughter the entirety of the latter group along with their families (two generations in both directions), and instantly improve the planet a hundredfold. That's my take on the character, at least.

I sympathise with Felisin and what she went with, but being a victim does not give you the right to victimise others in return.

Everyone deals with shit in their lives, most of them aren't assholes because of it.

[amphibian]

AlanH, on 28 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I sympathise with Felisin and what she went with, but being a victim does not give you the right to victimise others in return.

Everyone deals with shit in their lives, most of them aren't assholes because of it.

How many of these "everyone" are 14 year old girls who have their parents murdered in front of them, get thrown in prison by their sister, get raped repeatedly and have two creepy dudes who were chained to her and are now following her around most of the time?

Felisin is a tragic character and the failure to empathize with her is indeed a fault in the reader. What she went through is basically the next worst thing to being sexually abused by a family member since toddlerdom. Her experiences in prison, the ship to Otataral Island, the mines there and subsequent travels are some of the worst things experienced by anyone in the Malazan universe. Her entire life was ripped away, she was shoved into an incredibly nasty environment with no preparation and she can't trust anyone because they could kill her, starve her or assault her. Her only currency was giving her body and she found basically one person who would give her a square deal for the exchange of that currency - Beneth - and he got killed by the creepy dudes following her around for unknown purposes.

So you can possibly imagine why she'd be an asshole about things or extremely distrustful of everyone around her. Ever read about feral kids or kids who've been abused when little and become hoarders of food and the like? That's what happened to Felisin. Her distrust and recent experiences make her responses to what's going on very illogical and self-absorbed because that's what she has to do in order to survive. Her cries for attention or twisted caring from Beneth are very similar to people who've been abused and still cling to their abusers because at least that way they get some shred of attention or "love" that they crave in a world completely spun through a blender of violence, drugs and powerlessness.

She can't care about victimizing others or that she's such a pain to be around because she's so wrapped up in her own hurt. It's not a simple matter of "turning on the empathy" or "not being an asshole". It's a long process that people go through over years and usually with professional help or a network of support from loving family and friends accumulated after the traumatic events. There are moments when she's even nice to Heboric, Baudin and Kulp, but those are the brief rays of sunshine in a permanently overcast world for her.

She's a heartbreaker - and not in the good way.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 28 December 2013 - 09:12 PM

[worry]

AlanH, on 28 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I sympathise with Felisin and what she went with, but being a victim does not give you the right to victimise others in return.

Who does she victimize in the entirety of this book? Am I forgetting someone? Cuz as far as I recall, at worst she says mean things to a few older men who can more than take it. In contrast, Baudin -- one of her "victims" I suppose -- saws an old lady's head off with a chain before we even finish the prologue.

AlanH, on 28 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Everyone deals with shit in their lives, most of them aren't assholes because of it.

Interesting hypothesis, but I'd like to see the numbers.

[Studlock]

I hate the conversation about Felisin always boils down to either she's a 'victim' or 'cruel (or what you all really mean 'a bitch')'. She's a young girl, who despite the extreme abuse, betrayal and overall shitty life somehow pulls herself out of the shit hole she was living in. Kulp even mentions in the book, and I am sure someone with the book closer to them can quote the scene, that she out does them time and again. She is a self-possesed survivor who fucking survives by any mean necessary and to call her either a 'victim' or 'cruel' is to completely misread the character (on a side note where I'm sure people will be anger about I highly doubt her character would get the same kind of negative response if she was a man, there are plenty of characters in the realm of fiction who don't get the same kind ire as she while being extremely similar).

Felisin is one of SE most complete and compelling characters (if not the most...but Karsa and Dancer are up there) and I'll fight anyone who thinks otherwise.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 28 December 2013 - 11:07 PM

[AlanH]

amphibian, on 28 December 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

AlanH, on 28 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I sympathise with Felisin and what she went with, but being a victim does not give you the right to victimise others in return.

Everyone deals with shit in their lives, most of them aren't assholes because of it.

How many of these "everyone" are 14 year old girls who have their parents murdered in front of them, get thrown in prison by their sister, get raped repeatedly and have two creepy dudes who were chained to her and are now following her around most of the time?

Felisin is a tragic character and the failure to empathize with her is indeed a fault in the reader.

One of the ways I've personally come to empathise with Felisin is in being the "victim". I think she acts the way she does in part because she doesn't want to be treated like a victim. It can seem strange to the people on the outside, but is a horrible feeling to be constantly looked at by everyone as a victim, to have that constant sympathy in how they act to you and treat you. I disagree with how it affects her. She seems to take it out on others as anger, or, as I think a later poster suggested, by being bitchy. Her actions and attitude are understandable, but I don't think that makes them justifiably good or okay.

As for the second sentence quoted above... I hate that point of view. This is literature, it is subjective. It's the same reaction I get if someone tells me I just don't understand it or appreciate it when I say I don't like a Shakespeare play or a Dickens novel or whatever. You can tell me all you want about the technical importance of a piece of literature, or the narrative importance of a character. But you don't get to tell people what to feel about about a character or a piece of writing. I don't care if Felisin is a tragic character or if Hamlet is a "classic", if I don't agree with you and empathise with Felisin or rave about Hamlet after reading it that doesn't make me an emotionally numb philistine.

Not enjoying or feeling the same as the majority on a work of literature or a subject therein is not a fault in the reader. It's the reader being a human being and having a different opinion, one which in my opinion is worth more than that of the man who judges them because they didn't fucking agree.

worry, on 28 December 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

AlanH, on 28 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

I sympathise with Felisin and what she went with, but being a victim does not give you the right to victimise others in return.

Who does she victimize in the entirety of this book? Am I forgetting someone? Cuz as far as I recall, at worst she says mean things to a few older men who can more than take it. In contrast, Baudin -- one of her "victims" I suppose -- saws an old lady's head off with a chain before we even finish the prologue.

AlanH, on 28 December 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Everyone deals with shit in their lives, most of them aren't assholes because of it.

Interesting hypothesis, but I'd like to see the numbers.

I'm away from my books visiting family this Christmas so if we still remember this thread in a weeks time I'll re-read DG and get back to you on the first bit. It's been a while now since I've read it and I'm more than a little hazy on the details.

As for my "hypothesis",as I'm sure you know I don't have numbers and asking for them, although seeming like a logical request, isn't really a fair request considering we both know I'm not basing it on any sort of scientific inquiry. But we no doubt both know people who have had struggles in their lives, ourselves included. Speaking personally, I've been dealing with a horrible illness for a while now, and I know others who it consumes their lives to the point where they feel justified in acting like because they deal with it they have the right to act however they want to everyone else because they don't understand what they're going through. But the majority of the people I know in the same situation to me put in so much hard to work to be normal, to be nice, because even though we got a bad role of the dice, we don't have the right to take it out on other people.

(Sorry if that was a bit rambly, I'm tired and this isn't my best time of day.)

[Illuyankas]

Hmm yes, while I commiserate with your illness I also fail to see the parallels between your mature adult life with your family and your societal support structures and your retention of your physical autonomy to an orphaned exiled slave girl in a concentration camp with a rape economy.

[Stormcat]

Felisin is tragic. Almost any 14 year old is going to be pretty hard after what she went through. The abuse, the drugs seeing a friend of the family get her head torn off by a guy she is chained to. Not to mention the complete betrayal from her sister.As for Beneth she wanted to believe he cared for her.

[Kanese S's]

Whiskeyjackuk, on 28 December 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Having just marched through DG and seeing the troubles Felisin, Heboric and Baudin suffer. Yes, Felisin sold herself to help Heboric and Baudin get better treatment. Or did she? I wonder if she did it partly to abuse herself for her sister's treatment of her, in selling her. Or if she did it purely for company.

What did seriously tick me off was her feelings for Beneth, and wanting him to leave with the three of them. And her not believing Baudin when he claimed that they got not better treatment. Her treatment of heboric and Baudin once they had left the mines got cruel and vicious. Showing her to be somewhat shallow and self-centered. Something is broken in her I think. She's had a tough time her sister turned her back on her, and on Ganoes, whom everyone believes is dead. Is she - Felisin - crying out for attention, or a victim of the Empire? Maybe a bit of both. It's bits like this that make the series delving into characters and their past.

You ever know someone in an abusive relationship? They often live in denial and have real feelings for their abuser. It's not easy to get out of, mentally or physically.

I would call Felisin a victim who never really had someone who could quite handle the damage her ordeal inflicted on her. Sometimes when a person endures monstrous things, they in turn become a monster. It's no secret that many abusers were themselves prior victims of abuse.

Trauma leaves people with emotional scars that sometimes screw up their ability to really interact in any constructive way with other people.

Of course something is broken in her. How could it not be?

[Kanese S's]

worry, on 28 December 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

You could divide the world into people who sympathize with Felisin and those who don't, slaughter the entirety of the latter group along with their families (two generations in both directions), and instantly improve the planet a hundredfold. That's my take on the character, at least.

Agreed. You don't have to like her. You can get pissed off at the cruel things she says and does... but if, having read about her ordeal, you have no sympathy for her, even if only to say "That's really fucked up what she said... but I guess I understand that she's kinda fucked up after all that shit," just none at all... then you are an asshole. Plain and simple.

Also, I need to add to your post's rep tomorrow. Maxed out for today.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 31 December 2013 - 12:55 PM

[QuickTidal]

I'll never understand anyone who DOESN'T sympathize with her. She is literally put through bone-chilling, soul destroying hell for chapter after chapter...and you simply can't help but feel for her. Easily one of the most heartbreaking characters in the entire series. Kanese is right, you don't have to like the choices she makes, or the cruelty and malice that is born in her...but damn if what she went through isn't traumatic as hell! She's a victim, plain and simple and there is no other way to see her.

[Stormcat]

I worked in group homes for a couple years. There were many many kids that were taken from their parents due to severe sexual and physical abuse. Most of them would try to sneak out and see their abusers. Even after a court severed all rights.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

This has been an interesting topic for me recently because I've got three separate friends reading the series at the moment and they're all at different points (they got fed up of me talking about it I think! ) and they all had different reactions to Felisin. Mine differed from first read to second, but I think I was very guilty of skimming on my first read so just wasn't engaging with her arc very much. The second time I can only describe as akin to being hit in the chest with a hammer. Anyway, my three friends:

One was heartbroken by her, one was roughly in the middle ("She's a bit fucked up, but then lots of fucked up stuff happened to her so it's not surprising.") and another was all out "She's a bitch, fucked up stuff doesn't have to make fucked up people". What surprised me is that the latter I always considered to be probably the most compassionate of the three.

The disparity seems to be around two key points:

Firstly, a complete lack of a sense of scale to the "lots of fucked up stuff". As has been said she's 14 and has literally NO-ONE who can remotely comprehend what's happened to her. What happens to her is completely tragic and really, the reaction should be that of the first of my three examples - she is an utterly heartbreaking character.

Secondly, she's not supposed to necessarily be likeable or comfortable to read. Tragedy isn't comfortable. That's why it's tragedy.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 06 January 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

One was heartbroken by her, one was roughly in the middle ("She's a bit fucked up, but then lots of fucked up stuff happened to her so it's not surprising.") and another was all out "She's a bitch, fucked up stuff doesn't have to make fucked up people". What surprised me is that the latter I always considered to be probably the most compassionate of the three.

I fell somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd reaction. My annoyance with the character was a result of her antagonism toward her would-be protectors combined with her apparent Stockholm syndrome toward her abuser. For such tragic characters, the reader's instinct is to root for their ultimate triumph, but Felisin's every decision was the wrong one, making for a very frustrating read and a tendency to feel less and less sympathy for her as time went on.

[Phantom1]

I think everybody can agree that felisin is a victim and what she went through is terrible, she is a victim even if she acts cruelly. I personally feel for her and part of me understands why she acts that way. However, I do feel she is annoying in a way. It's understandable that a fifteen year old girl who got abuse and rape feels like she can't trust anybody and that they are all out to get her. But I can't stop myself from feeling that she seems to like feeling sorry for herself and likes that everybody else feels sorry for her as well. I mean that is probably why they are letting her do and say what she wants.

Also, acting out is totally understandable and having trust issues is also normal. But I think what somehow annoys the readers is that all of her companion have been nothing but nice to her, they have protected her, cared for her and always tried to feel for what she's been through. They've been with her all along in hopes to make it easier for a girl to live through this and as understood later (maybe a little spoiler sorry) these guys were there to help her escape the mines. Even when she figures that out she pushes both of them away even further. I know she is a victim she will always be a victim and it can excuses most of what she does but personally I think that some of the stuff she has done are just ungrateful and selfish. And obviously this whole thing about hating Baudin for killing Bennett, I get that it's a common reaction for abused girls, but it just makes me angry because I want her to get better and in order to get better she has to get it together be strong, face what she has been through and understand that she is now safer and that Bennett was just a pure ass hole ( excuse the language) who couldn't care less of her.

[worry]

Let's say, hypothetically, you removed all the "I" statements from that post ("I feel", "I get that...but", "I want"). Would that raise or lower the empathy quotient of the post? An interesting exercise!

[tiam]

Is she not cruel because she was a victim? we hear from Tavore in GOTM that shes not particularly ruthless and no threat to Tavores dominance of House Paran. She might have simply been a product of her environment. At the same time Tavore got Felisin off better than other noble ladies.