[Dolorous Menhir]

This review contains spoilers.

Enjoyed the film very much, especially the banter between the crew. The film works as entertainment (no denying that), but does not leave a lasting impression. The plot is a disaster zone, even if you have a high tolerance for coincidence and scientific illiteracy (and I do). Taking the film's universe on its own terms, here are the most obvious problems:

- The chain of actions that drive the plot don't really hang together. You can buy Khan's actions as a wide, chaotic campaign of revenge against Starfleet. Not clear what his endgame was, but he was thrown off track on Kronos so it doesn't matter. But what was the Admiral trying to achieve? He couldn't have known Khan would bomb London, attack the captain's meeting or flee to Kronos. So was Marcus just trying to turn that to his advantage by ensuring a Klingon "incident" and starting the war he secretly wanted? Still makes a rough kind of sense...but why send Khan's people in torpedoes? Kirk was supposed to fire on Kronos from extreme range. Were Khan's people supposed to survive that and wreak havoc on Kronos? Would normal torpedos not have been even better?

- Speaking of the Klingons. Lots of concern about provoking a war. Kirk was supposed to be very careful not to (though this was the Admiral's secret plan). The incident happened: an entire Klingon patrol were killed by Starfleet personnel on their homeworld. The Klingons geared up for war and the rest of the film was consumed by the growing human-Klingon conflict. Oh wait, that didn't happen. There was a sudden bout of Klingon-related amnesia and the film didn't mention them again, even in the 1 year later epilogue.

- The last hour or so consisted of the Enterprise fighting the Admiral's ship. They end up in the home system, near Earth. They have several conversations. The two Starfleet ships fire on each other multiple times. People travel back and forth between them. And the whole time the rest of humanity is oblivious. Khan has to crashland in San Franciso to get their attention. We saw the captains of a dozen ships in the meeting Khan attacked. Where did they go? There is no sign of the rest of Starfleet. The Federation doesn't have any civilian authorities in the area? Humanity is concerned about war with the Klingons, but has no homeworld defences against (for example) a battle in near-Earth orbit or two out of control ships entering the atmosphere? They're not even monitoring the skies to see if bad things like that are happening?

- What exactly was Khan trying to achieve at the very end? The Admiral was dead. Kirk was in orbit. He thought his people were dead, or knew they were still on the Enterprise (wasn't too clear). There was no obvious goal in San Francisco, unless he was going to start killing Starfleet personnel indiscriminately. Where was he running to?

- There is no concept of distance. You can warp from Kronos to Earth in almost no time at all, while remaining in close contact with Starfleet. You can get thrown out of warp during an attack, and find yourself a short distance from Earth. And someone can transport from Earth to Kronos using Scott's technology...but nobody else in the film will do so because it would break the plot or something. This is ignoring the part in the previous film where old Spock watches the destruction of Vulcan from the ice planet, which is, in astronomical terms, criminally stupid.

- We can also assume that the ability to cure death will be set aside in the next film, since between that and the interstellar planet-to-planet transport there would be no need for Starfleet or spaceships or maverick captains. You also have to wonder why nobody worked out Khan's blood could do this before. And why they had to re-capture Khan to save Kirk, when presumably blood from any of the 72 others would work just as well.

[HoosierDaddy]

Suspension of belief was difficult at times, especially with their walkie-talkie Bone Phones from Kirk to Scottie hundreds of light years away and the obviously massive Spock/Scottie induced transwarp machine that Harrison uses. That being said, I was curious as to the disposition of the Klingon-Federation situation. Imminent war seems to be the case, so it might be a precursor to a third movie.

That being said... I loved it and I hated and I loved it even more.

[QuickTidal]

Dolorous Menhir, on 19 May 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

This review contains spoilers.

Enjoyed the film very much, especially the banter between the crew. The film works as entertainment (no denying that), but does not leave a lasting impression. The plot is a disaster zone, even if you have a high tolerance for coincidence and scientific illiteracy (and I do). Taking the film's universe on its own terms, here are the most obvious problems:

- The chain of actions that drive the plot don't really hang together. You can buy Khan's actions as a wide, chaotic campaign of revenge against Starfleet. Not clear what his endgame was, but he was thrown off track on Kronos so it doesn't matter. But what was the Admiral trying to achieve? He couldn't have known Khan would bomb London, attack the captain's meeting or flee to Kronos. So was Marcus just trying to turn that to his advantage by ensuring a Klingon "incident" and starting the war he secretly wanted? Still makes a rough kind of sense...but why send Khan's people in torpedoes? Kirk was supposed to fire on Kronos from extreme range. Were Khan's people supposed to survive that and wreak havoc on Kronos? Would normal torpedos not have been even better?

You kind of have to look at Khan like the Joker in TDK. Some men, just want to watch the world burn. Khan's goals are twofold. 1. Fuck up starfleet, and regular humanity as much as possible. 2. Get his gene modified crew to be the dominant form of human life.

Quote

- Speaking of the Klingons. Lots of concern about provoking a war. Kirk was supposed to be very careful not to (though this was the Admiral's secret plan). The incident happened: an entire Klingon patrol were killed by Starfleet personnel on their homeworld. The Klingons geared up for war and the rest of the film was consumed by the growing human-Klingon conflict. Oh wait, that didn't happen. There was a sudden bout of Klingon-related amnesia and the film didn't mention them again, even in the 1 year later epilogue.

I think it's been mentioned before in interviews that the Klingon's are meant to be the antagonists of the 3rd film. Thus, Kirk's attack of the patrol that were killed and the downed warbird would be investigated and likely will show up again in the plot of the next film. Those were my thoughts anyways.

Quote

- The last hour or so consisted of the Enterprise fighting the Admiral's ship. They end up in the home system, near Earth. They have several conversations. The two Starfleet ships fire on each other multiple times. People travel back and forth between them. And the whole time the rest of humanity is oblivious. Khan has to crashland in San Franciso to get their attention. We saw the captains of a dozen ships in the meeting Khan attacked. Where did they go? There is no sign of the rest of Starfleet. The Federation doesn't have any civilian authorities in the area? Humanity is concerned about war with the Klingons, but has no homeworld defences against (for example) a battle in near-Earth orbit or two out of control ships entering the atmosphere? They're not even monitoring the skies to see if bad things like that are happening?

It seemed lie once out of warp and in the home system the events happen fairly quickly. My guess is that any outposts monitoring didn't get going in time? Just a guess.

Quote

- What exactly was Khan trying to achieve at the very end? The Admiral was dead. Kirk was in orbit. He thought his people were dead, or knew they were still on the Enterprise (wasn't too clear). There was no obvious goal in San Francisco, unless he was going to start killing Starfleet personnel indiscriminately. Where was he running to?

See above. The Joker, fucking up humanity. In the scene where the ships computer tells him that it can't find an adequate landing site and he gleefully tells it to lay the course in anyways, he's clearly looking to take out as much of San Fran as he can. Grudge against Starfleet and humanity, after thinking he lost his crew. Then I assume he runs because...otherwise they will catch him again. At least had he escaped he could have started his research anew.

Quote

- There is no concept of distance. You can warp from Kronos to Earth in almost no time at all, while remaining in close contact with Starfleet. You can get thrown out of warp during an attack, and find yourself a short distance from Earth. And someone can transport from Earth to Kronos using Scott's technology...but nobody else in the film will do so because it would break the plot or something. This is ignoring the part in the previous film where old Spock watches the destruction of Vulcan from the ice planet, which is, in astronomical terms, criminally stupid.

This is a fair complaint.

Quote

- We can also assume that the ability to cure death will be set aside in the next film, since between that and the interstellar planet-to-planet transport there would be no need for Starfleet or spaceships or maverick captains. You also have to wonder why nobody worked out Khan's blood could do this before. And why they had to re-capture Khan to save Kirk, when presumably blood from any of the 72 others would work just as well.

Having tested Khan's blood in the dead tribble and watching the effects they KNEW Khan's blood would work (or at least had a good idea)...but unfreezing one of the other crew-members, thawing their blood, testing it (the tribble seemed like it didn't wake right away and took a few hours from when Mcoy injected it till it woke up) and seeing if it had the same results would have taken time they likely didn't have. Add that Spock was already on a revenge mission to catch him (remember he didn't know about the blood and saving Kirk till Uhura beamed down to help him), plotwise it only makes sense to use the guy who's alive, awake and within catching distance of an angry half-human Vulcan.

And arguably the planet to planet jump was pointed out as SUPER risky by Scotty, and thus not something that Starfleet was looking to use often.

Also, someone else brought up the walkie talkie communicators working over such great distances...and I said that if it can work from ship to ship, and from ship to away teams on the planet below that it should be able to work over longer distances as well. There is no reason it couldn't really. Radio waves are the best space travelers out there. They don't degrade, and as long as they are aimed in the right direction, they won't waver. It's why we have SETI searching radio waves....it how we discovered pulsars...

Anyways, the above is how I saw those things.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thanks for replying. Can definitely accept some of these points as concessions to story-telling. Plus Star Trek has never been "hard" sci-fi. But still...

QuickTidal, on 19 May 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Quote

- The last hour or so consisted of the Enterprise fighting the Admiral's ship. They end up in the home system, near Earth. They have several conversations. The two Starfleet ships fire on each other multiple times. People travel back and forth between them. And the whole time the rest of humanity is oblivious. Khan has to crashland in San Franciso to get their attention. We saw the captains of a dozen ships in the meeting Khan attacked. Where did they go? There is no sign of the rest of Starfleet. The Federation doesn't have any civilian authorities in the area? Humanity is concerned about war with the Klingons, but has no homeworld defences against (for example) a battle in near-Earth orbit or two out of control ships entering the atmosphere? They're not even monitoring the skies to see if bad things like that are happening?

It seemed lie once out of warp and in the home system the events happen fairly quickly. My guess is that any outposts monitoring didn't get going in time? Just a guess.

Still a stretch. Kirk and Scotty can make routine phone calls at interstellar distances, but there are no air traffic controllers contacting ships which enter Earth orbit? Or police/military agencies which might take an interest in two Starfleet ships duking it out over the homeworld?

QuickTidal, on 19 May 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Quote

- We can also assume that the ability to cure death will be set aside in the next film, since between that and the interstellar planet-to-planet transport there would be no need for Starfleet or spaceships or maverick captains. You also have to wonder why nobody worked out Khan's blood could do this before. And why they had to re-capture Khan to save Kirk, when presumably blood from any of the 72 others would work just as well.

And arguably the planet to planet jump was pointed out as SUPER risky by Scotty, and thus not something that Starfleet was looking to use often.

Also, someone else brought up the walkie talkie communicators working over such great distances...and I said that if it can work from ship to ship, and from ship to away teams on the planet below that it should be able to work over longer distances as well. There is no reason it couldn't really. Radio waves are the best space travelers out there. They don't degrade, and as long as they are aimed in the right direction, they won't waver. It's why we have SETI searching radio waves....it how we discovered pulsars...

Anyways, the above is how I saw those things.

This goes to the distance point. There is a very very significant difference between these things. You can do ship-to-ship and surface-to-orbit with today's technology. Those are still small distances with respect to the speed of light. But between solar systems? This is one of the problems with the film. It's an action film that happens to be set in the Star Trek universe. It does not think through the true scale of space and what that means for travel and communications. Everywhere is local. You could have set the same story on the planet's surface.

[Studlock]

I've been suspicious of the intelligent content of Star trek was carried over from the show to the movies. Sadly after the first (new movie) I felt Star Trek went a different direction in this new series. The trailers of the new movie has not changed that . Ifv some can convince me otherwise I'd be be happy to hear.

[Defiance]

Studlock, on 19 May 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

I've been suspicious of the intelligent content of Star trek was carried over from the show to the movies. Sadly after the first (new movie) I felt Star Trek went a different direction in this new series. The trailers of the new movie has not changed that . Ifv some can convince me otherwise I'd be be happy to hear.

I haven't seen the second movie yet, but I think the first chose to sacrifice this in order to have mass market appeal. I thought this was unfortunate. While I thought the rebooted Star Trek was great fun, it felt more in line with Star Wars than with TV's Star Trek. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing - the movie was infinitely better than the awful Star Wars prequels and as I said was very entertaining overall, but I can see how it disappointed hardcore Trekkies and it's something that I would have liked to see incorporated in some way. While television and cinema are too very different beasts, it would have been interesting to see the great action coupled with an intelligent, though-provoking story, themes, and characters.

[tiam]

After the first film where Spock, instead of leaving Kirk in the brig, decides to shoot him 14km away from the nearest StarFleet outpost on a planet full of hostile baddies and Kirk just happens to run into a cave to be saved by Spock Prime I wasnt expecting much. These are action films now and are thus subject to the rule that you shouldnt apply logic to them.

I watched the special features of the original remake and JJ Abrams states that he was going for a more Star Wars feel describing the old Star Trek combat as 'submarine warfare' which is pretty accurate. He also said modern audiences want a faster paced movie like Empire Strikes Back. The only thing I have a problem with is less to do with Trek (though the resurection formula that Bones might have should really come up again) and more to do with films bringing back characters after killing them off 20 minutes before. It cheapens the deal and although it was obvious in this instance, given its reliance on the Wrath of Khan plot, it still felt alot cheaper than simply the possibility of Spock returning ion the next one due to the genesis project.

Though there was no genesis in this one.

Defiance- YEs these were significantly better than the Star Wars prequels and I very much enjoyed the film and the main cast. Urban as Bones is probably my favorite though he seemed to have a smaller role in this one.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 19 May 2013 - 09:33 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Logically, the Federation has a Jesus Syndrome and should make it ready to humanity at large (I'm sure there's a way to synthesize Khan's blood.)

That being said: Nope. Death is supposed to be real and yet isn't anymore if logic holds steady in Trekkie world. Still love the move despite this.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Dolorous Menhir, on 19 May 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

IADMAITTFIS

Edited for you DM

[Chance]

Saw it a while ago and found it vastly uninteresting and fairly boring for most of the time. That being said it was very pretty which I greatly enjoyed .

My opinion of it is mostly formed because I can't really see a reason not to consider technology before you introduce or use it as a plot point, why make science fiction without at least some science.

Also any film using the kind of cheap ressurection plot should have anyone responsible shot and the plot reworked into something that will fool a ten year old. Unless they intend to make it a big thing in the next film which I kinda doubt as they just found a cure to death.

This post has been edited by Chance: 19 May 2013 - 09:48 PM

[polishgenius]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 19 May 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

These are action films now and are thus subject to the rule that you shouldnt apply logic to them.

I absolutely despite the notion that action films have to be stupid.



The problem isn't really that the films are stupid though- I watched Fast and Furious 6 t'other day and had no problems with it, despite parts of it being mind-blowingly stupid. The problem is that the stupidity clashes within the film. Mostly, in this case, the lack of a feeling of distance that people have mentioned, which results in a lot of the actions making no sense (Starfleet has technology that could dump entire armies onto the Klingon homeworld undetected. They're worried about losing the war why, exactly?).


I didn't think this was enough of an irritation to really bring down the film, though. My main criticism of it is, like I said in the other topic, the ending being both emotionally dishonest with asking us to mourn Kirk then instantly bringing him back, and waaaaaaaay too closely tied to Wrath of Khan to the point it felt silly, rather than meaningful.

[Dragonstar]

I enjoyed the movie, good action, but with plenty of plot holes.

My big one was with Spock doing the whole "Khhhhaaaannnn" thing. I mean it wasn't really Khans fault that Kirk died, the reactor got all damaged when the Admiral attacked the ship, all Khan did was betray Kirk on the ship and send him back to the Enterprise. I dont think Khan attacked the Enterprise at all, just threatened them so he would give his crew back. If he should blame anyone it would be the admiral for trying to kill them all.

[polishgenius]

Dragonstar, on 20 May 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

all Khan did was betray Kirk on the ship

He didn't even do that. I mean, he was probably going to, but Kirk betrayed him first.

[Una]

Defiance, on 19 May 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Studlock, on 19 May 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

I've been suspicious of the intelligent content of Star trek was carried over from the show to the movies. Sadly after the first (new movie) I felt Star Trek went a different direction in this new series. The trailers of the new movie has not changed that . Ifv some can convince me otherwise I'd be be happy to hear.

I haven't seen the second movie yet, but I think the first chose to sacrifice this in order to have mass market appeal. I thought this was unfortunate. While I thought the rebooted Star Trek was great fun, it felt more in line with Star Wars than with TV's Star Trek. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing - the movie was infinitely better than the awful Star Wars prequels and as I said was very entertaining overall, but I can see how it disappointed hardcore Trekkies and it's something that I would have liked to see incorporated in some way. While television and cinema are too very different beasts, it would have been interesting to see the great action coupled with an intelligent, though-provoking story, themes, and characters.

Oh gosh! I thought I must be the only person on the planet that felt this way. I thought the first reboot movie was entertaining enough...as an action movie. But I don't watch Trek for action and I walked out of the theatre with a bad feeling and almost a sense of betrayal. Like I was watching them miss the whole point and sell out, maybe? Maybe that's what I felt. Action and dumb entertainment is not why I got into the series in the first place. Everyone just tells me that I'm some hard-to-please hardcore Trekkie who cannot be satisfied and I should just turn off my brain and I don't know how to enjoy some fun entertainment. But the uneasiness was bad enough with the first movie that I'm rather scared to watch the second one. I prefer to preserve my good memories of the series.

[Studlock]

I've actually had the same reaction to a bunch of sci-fi films recently, they're are super pretty but when you get down to the root of it fundamentally simple. Star Trek, Oblivion, Prometheus and others. I don't think of myself as hard to please but perhaps as I've grown out of teenage hood to (young) adulthood I've become harder to impress? 2001: Space Odyssey made me weep and hate the same character, a character that wasn't even human. Star Trek: TNG was my favorite show as a kid and taught me many things school didn't. Perhaps I'm a Trekkie whose unpleasable but I've liked the Marvel movies well enough without them being too smart so I doubt I am.