[Deadsmell]

So im a little confused as to who came first. I've read all of ICE books too btw.

So which was first, Dragons? Eresal? Azenathai? I remember someone saying that eresal walked the land first.. then someone else saying that before Jaghut the Che'Melle walked. But then Che'Melle worship dragons so dragons are surely before them... And yet its stated in one book that Azenathai were there when 'creation', or getting out the darkness, whatever you call it.. occured.

Anyone know the actual order list? Would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I still think its all kinda up in the air, so I'll just post this video:

[worry]

Depends on which point in time you start from, and which direction you go in.

[Ruthan Good]

The chicken comes first, because you first fry the chicken till its cooked, and then you cover it with the egg and swish it around, and then it's edible and yummy. But if you first fry the egg and then throw in the chicken, then by the time the chicken is cooked the egg is burnt, and it just doesn't work. Hence it's the chicken and then the egg.

In reality Kharkanas Trilogy is the closest to revealing the history to us. I can offer some guesses but I'm not sure they belong on this forum.

Tiste came from one place
Eleint came from another
Eresal were from a third place, and probably originated in the world that we know is ours (where did the name Wu come from btw?). I believe they were first of the human races i.e. first of the Eresal/Thel Akai/Imass etc, though correct me if I'm wrong
K'Chain CheMalle came from Wu's moon
Jaghut and Assail - not sure

Azathanai - who the hell knows how this works, or how the Vitr works, and let's face it, it's doubtful SE is giving us all the answers

[Kanese S's]

Reading Forge of Darkness will help with some of that. Still won't give you all the answers, as I don't think Erikson will ever give all the answers. Not his style.

[Ozymandiac]

Ruthan Good, on 06 March 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

K'Chain CheMalle came from Wu's moon

Where is this stated? I never heard that before

[worry]

It comes from someone saying it once on the board, and now I guess it's a fact.

[Ruthan Good]

Yep. See above.

[Abyss]

Ozymandiac, on 03 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Ruthan Good, on 06 March 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

K'Chain CheMalle came from Wu's moon

Where is this stated? I never heard that before

worrywort, on 03 April 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

It comes from someone saying it once on the board, and now I guess it's a fact.

Ruthan Good, on 03 April 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Yep. See above.

Not exactly.

In TB when the Jade chunks are falling, Paran comments that he should have checked the moon, implying that there was something to see up there.

Also in TB, Kalam and co encounter the Nah'ruk skykeeps in the Impy Warren. Someone refers to them as 'Moon's Spawns'.

Now here's where my recall gets fuzzy... also in TB, or in a later book, i think there's a comment that the Nah'ruk are fleeing from the destruction of .... something that seems to be tied to an earlier event... i'm utterly blanking here but it made sense... where's Vaiski when we need him...

Anyrate at that point Forum theory kicked in, but it wasn't entirely speculation.

The DoD Nah'ruk were either refugees who had fled the civil war with the Che'malle and the Tiste invasion, or else the original even older ones that the Che'malle tried to copy. It seems likely that if the former, they were hiding somewhere, and since no one mentions seeing an armada of Moon's Spawns in the IW prior to TB, it makes sense that they were hiding somewhere else, and the moon seemed like a likely location.

Cheap rent, nice view, etc etc.

[worry]

Craziest thing I ever heard in my life.

[Abyss]

And also, Traveller is Dassem Ultor.

[Ozymandiac]

Abyss, on 03 April 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

In TB when the Jade chunks are falling, Paran comments that he should have checked the moon, implying that there was something to see up there.

This is an interesting point, I just reread that quote and it seems he is genuinely concerned what has happened to the Moon - and not from an astronomical point of view.

Abyss, on 03 April 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Also in TB, Kalam and co encounter the Nah'ruk skykeeps in the Impy Warren. Someone refers to them as 'Moon's Spawns'.

That quote doesn't mean anything. The first and only skykeep most people see is named Moon's Spawn for some reason. So, when Quick Ben has to explain to Tavore what he saw, he refers to the skykeeps as multiple Moon's Spawns, which isn't very surprising since that's probably the best way to explain the crazy thing he just saw.

The argument can be reduced to the question why the only known skykeep is known as Moon's Spawn. And that could really be anything right - it could be it was named that way because a flying rock looks like the moon, I don't know.

Abyss, on 03 April 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Now here's where my recall gets fuzzy... also in TB, or in a later book, i think there's a comment that the Nah'ruk are fleeing from the destruction of .... something that seems to be tied to an earlier event... i'm utterly blanking here but it made sense... where's Vaiski when we need him...

I couldn't find this comment but maybe it's somewhere

Abyss, on 03 April 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

The DoD Nah'ruk were either refugees who had fled the civil war with the Che'malle and the Tiste invasion, or else the original even older ones that the Che'malle tried to copy. It seems likely that if the former, they were hiding somewhere, and since no one mentions seeing an armada of Moon's Spawns in the IW prior to TB, it makes sense that they were hiding somewhere else, and the moon seemed like a likely location.

I am drawing a complete blank regarding the older versions that the Che'Malle wanted to copy, that's very interesting. Do you know where this is mentioned? It's been to long since my last reread...

I am still pretty skeptical about this idea (living on the moon) but it's something that cannot be excluded. The Nah'Ruk have been hiding for a long time. It's possible they used a warren but that just doesn't seem as safe.The whole story of the Nah'Ruk would sound very Iron Sky-esque by the way, but I guess that's a plus

This post has been edited by Ozymandiac: 04 April 2013 - 10:15 AM

[Ruthan Good]

Did Kalam and co encounter the skykeeps before or after Mogora's healing of Mappo?

[Ozymandiac]

I somehow can't find the moment where Quick Ben and Kalam first see the skykeeps, but I found the moment where he describes them to Tavore and Blistig at page 153 of tBH. Mogora's healing is around 350.

So they encounter the skykeeps before Mogora's healing ritual. You're thinking about the reference to the moon, right?

‘And now,’ Mogora said, ‘time for the moon.’
The blackness overhead vanished in a sudden bloom of silver, incandescent light. Squealing, Iskaral Pust fell onto his back, so alarming was the transformation, and he found himself staring straight up at a massive, full moon, hanging so low it seemed within reach. If he but dared. Which he did not.
‘You’ve brought the moon down! Are you mad? It’s going to crash on us!’
‘Oh, stop it. It only seems that way – well, maybe I nudged it a bit – but I told you this was a serious ritual, didn’t I?’
‘What have you done with the moon?’
She crowed with manic laughter. ‘It’s just my little ritual, darling. How do you like it?’

But even if the page order is not chronological, it doesn't seem likely that this ritual put the K'Chain Nah'Ruk in movement.

My memory is becoming a bit hazy, but the moon was hit by a series of comets right?

[worry]

The moon is hit with the jade chunks that eventually hit the world at the end of TBH. They are precursors to the jade giant(s) that actually threaten the world, due to their size, in TCG.

[Ruthan Good]

Yeah, my thinking was that an external event, like the jade chunks hitting the moon or Mogora's ritual brought the Nahruk out of hiding.

[Ozymandiac]

I just noticed something interesting when I was looking at the conversation where Quick Ben tells Tavore about the fleet of Moon's Spawns. On one and the same page, Kalam observes:

"The misshapen moon now cast down a silvery light on the land – it was looking rougher round the edges, Kalam realized, as if the surrounding darkness was gnawing at it – he wondered that he’d not noticed before. Had it always been like that?
‘Good evening, Adjunct,’ Quick Ben said as they arrived.
[...]
‘High Mage.’
He nodded. ‘There were... Moon’s Spawns in the Imperial Warren. Ten, twelve came into sight before we retreated.’

In fact, it seems many people remark on this, all before the big meteor storm, amongst them Samar Dev, Fiddler, Squint, Apsalar, Scillara, ... There is no end to the people witnessing the moon being different: hazy, dim, dusty, full of dark blotches, etc.

I guess this is what originally fuelled the whole discussion about lizards coming from the moon, didn't it? Because apparently, there is already something wrong with the moon before the whole jade meteor shower convergence takes place - most probably an earlier wave of meteors?

So, the moon crumbling down and the KCNR showing up at the exact moment the moon is crumbling down could still be a coincidence. I have to be skeptical. But it fits very neatly - I'm impressed.

[ZSonicMaster]

In TCG, Kalyth mentions "A time among [between?] the stars" when she's rifling through Gunth Mach's (and all of the preceding matrons') memories. This is the only reference to the K'Chain Che'Malle being extraterrestrial that I remember from the series.

[NefaraisBredd]

It seems that the Eres'al may be the first due.to.their.ability to travel through time and space. Then you have the Azathanai, spoiler/ [who are referred to as the neverborn/spoiler] so they are arguably the first. Kchain Ch'malle come next and possibly the Forkrul Assail and the Jaghut. Dragons are Kilimandaros' children if I am not mistaken spoiler/ [or they are her 'responsibility' as Tiste are Draconus' and Ossercs'] Then again, the Azathanai also [admit.that there were beings and such before they existed, I think?] I'm gonna go.with the Eres'al-their time travelling abilities give them (logically) the best shot at being number 1. Oh, and Burn of course (duh).

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 27 August 2013 - 06:43 AM

[NefaraisBredd]

Obviously I am challenges.by.the.mysterious workings.of how to properly redact spoilers in my postings. Any examples offered in a message from any one.of you who has mastered this arcana would be greatly appreciated. Pls explain like u are talking to a child (sans condescendingness, lol)