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#1 User is offline   Xerxes 

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

Right so I just finished. It was excellent. But I'm wondering if somebody could help me out a little? I'm prepared to accept I've missed something big along he way but...
The whole Tiste Eidur and Rhulad Sengar story line, what was the point? I really don't get how it fits into the whole. It's that storyline that makes you think the Crippled God is a wrong 'un. He seems to have been needlessly cruel to poor Rhulad. The whole Eidur invasion was predicated on Rhulad's transformation. But it achieved nothing and served no point in the overall plot, did it? The whole sword thing, well what was that all about and why? All the champions. Was that just an elaborate way to get Icarium to Lether?
Seems to me, now I'm finished that all that was a bit of a cul de sac ? You could have excluded the whole thing and it won't have affected the overall story arc one bit? Or am I massively missing something?
Apologies if this has been asked before, I couldn't find any threads on it.

This post has been edited by Xerxes: 27 November 2012 - 11:06 PM

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#2 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:21 PM

Didn't think about this before. Is it possible, that CG wanted an army led by a champion to liberate him? Maybe he wanted Rhulad, but Rhulad failed him?

Also, ST told CG he can help him, and ST wanted Shadow, Kurald Emurlahn, so there could be a connection there perhaps?

Furthermore, Letheras would not have been accessible if not for the events in Midnight Tides (although the exact chain of events that led to the ice melting escapes me). And with Letheras not accessible, the Bonehunters would not have gotten to Letheras and did their thing. Of course, this raises the question of how the Assail landed on Kolanse in the first place, as they were there for a while before Midnight Tides (I think. Not 100% sure). I thought that Gothos' ice blocked Letheras to most of the rest of the world.

Also then we would have been no Trull or Tehol & Bugg, and frankly the whole damn thing wouldn't have been worth it then.

There might have been an in-book explanation, I just can't remember.
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#3 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:03 AM

Well he initially was going to use Hannan Mosag as his pawn, but that didn't pan out. Using Rhulad instead was a Plan B way to inflict as much pain as possible in the area. But the real long term goal, the draw of champions, it wasn't about Icarium, it was about Karsa -- TCG's Moby-Dick.
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#4 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:13 AM

View Postworrywort, on 28 November 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Well he initially was going to use Hannan Mosag as his pawn, but that didn't pan out. Using Rhulad instead was a Plan B way to inflict as much pain as possible in the area. But the real long term goal, the draw of champions, it wasn't about Icarium, it was about Karsa -- TCG's Moby-Dick.


I'm +1 on Karsa and Mosag.

However, the Plan B bit, why inflict as much pain as possible in the area? I mean I know he was crippled, chained and shattered, and had that done to him multiple times, hence his nature was altered blah blah blah... was there a reason to inflict pain apart from the deed itself? Same goes for Pannion Domin and 7 Cities Plague.
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#5 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:34 AM

That's up for debate. My thoughts: Was he lashing out to spread what he himself felt? Yah. Was he doing it cuz he was "criminally" insane like The Joker? Yah. Did he want revenge? Yah. Was he also desperate for help? Did he want positive attention from someone, anyone? Did he have hope for something better? Yah, eventually. Healing moments: Shadowthrone's conversations with him and eventual (if layered in motive) support. His own "alien" worshipers approaching in mass. The Bonehunters -- along with people at various new temples across the globe -- entering the House of Chains, and the effect/power we know worshipers can have on the worshiped. For a long long time he wasn't himself. For a short time there near the end, he was coming back to himself. It's how gradual this process was, when the tipping point was reached, that we'll never know for sure. But IMO, pain was his game for most of MBOTF, even as it overlapped with ST's other plan to get gods to start taking responsibility for their worshipers. That's where the rest of the "sympathetic" elements of the pantheon come in.
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#6 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:05 AM

While he evidently wanted Karsa to take the sword, I still think conquering Lether was the first step in a plan to hopefully head eastwards and defeat the Forkrul Assail at his Heart. Both the Edur empire and the Pannion Domin had a big expand-outwards-and-conquer-everything vibe - I think the CG was trying to use the nations he could influence to build up forces and re-conquer the major parts of his own self, of which The Heart would be the most important.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling (maybe she should change her name to Sinn).
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#7 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:23 AM

That's a pretty good theory, never thought of it.
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#8 User is offline   Xerxes 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

Thanks guys.

Your right with Bugg and Tehol it would not have been the same experience without them. They rock as characters.



On Hannan Mosag iirc didn't he say he never intended to invade Lether, just to raise a barrier against them so they would leave the Eidur alone?

I get it on the Karsa thing, but I'm still not sure what he would achieve with that sword making the wielder go mental and all. Karsa as a character was pretty well developed away from the Lether storyline. His temptation and rejection (because the rejection was central to his character) could have been engineered at any point, in Darujhistan say.

I kind of also take the spreading pain bit. But it still seems to me that this whole story line was a way over engineered way to do something that could have been done in an easier way. I don't buy, or understand now you point it out, the whole Panion dominion bit as well. They would have been useless as a force for the Crippled God as by their very nature they were unsustainable (the whole devastation of the countryside and eating each other bit) and were lead by a madman.

Lether could have been introduced by Tavore sending ahead a scouting party, for example.

I did enjoy Midnight Tides as a book in and of itself. It was very lyrical and worked well as a story of brothers. But it does all feel kind of pointless to the whole now I'm finished. Don't get me wrong I'm not presumptions enough to tell SE how to write and I can cope with unresolved story lines. But one that lasts at least a book and a half. Its more confusing me than anything else.
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#9 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

View Postworrywort, on 28 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

That's up for debate. My thoughts: Was he lashing out to spread what he himself felt? Yah. Was he doing it cuz he was "criminally" insane like The Joker? Yah. Did he want revenge? Yah. Was he also desperate for help? Did he want positive attention from someone, anyone? Did he have hope for something better? Yah, eventually. Healing moments: Shadowthrone's conversations with him and eventual (if layered in motive) support. His own "alien" worshipers approaching in mass. The Bonehunters -- along with people at various new temples across the globe -- entering the House of Chains, and the effect/power we know worshipers can have on the worshiped. For a long long time he wasn't himself. For a short time there near the end, he was coming back to himself. It's how gradual this process was, when the tipping point was reached, that we'll never know for sure. But IMO, pain was his game for most of MBOTF, even as it overlapped with ST's other plan to get gods to start taking responsibility for their worshipers. That's where the rest of the "sympathetic" elements of the pantheon come in.


Yeah, Gradual process of redemption, nay, Salvation! I like that.

View PostD, on 28 November 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

While he evidently wanted Karsa to take the sword, I still think conquering Lether was the first step in a plan to hopefully head eastwards and defeat the Forkrul Assail at his Heart. Both the Edur empire and the Pannion Domin had a big expand-outwards-and-conquer-everything vibe - I think the CG was trying to use the nations he could influence to build up forces and re-conquer the major parts of his own self, of which The Heart would be the most important.


That's kind of what I was driving at with the Edur, but didn't actually think of that with the Pannion or the Apocalyptica. The frenzied mindless Tenescowri might have been enough to overcome FA's jedi mind tricks, and the 7C rebellion was rich in mages, assassins, and they had L'Oric for a while.

View PostXerxes, on 28 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Thanks guys.

Your right with Bugg and Tehol it would not have been the same experience without them. They rock as characters.



On Hannan Mosag iirc didn't he say he never intended to invade Lether, just to raise a barrier against them so they would leave the Eidur alone?

I get it on the Karsa thing, but I'm still not sure what he would achieve with that sword making the wielder go mental and all. Karsa as a character was pretty well developed away from the Lether storyline. His temptation and rejection (because the rejection was central to his character) could have been engineered at any point, in Darujhistan say.

I kind of also take the spreading pain bit. But it still seems to me that this whole story line was a way over engineered way to do something that could have been done in an easier way. I don't buy, or understand now you point it out, the whole Panion dominion bit as well. They would have been useless as a force for the Crippled God as by their very nature they were unsustainable (the whole devastation of the countryside and eating each other bit) and were lead by a madman.

Lether could have been introduced by Tavore sending ahead a scouting party, for example.

I did enjoy Midnight Tides as a book in and of itself. It was very lyrical and worked well as a story of brothers. But it does all feel kind of pointless to the whole now I'm finished. Don't get me wrong I'm not presumptions enough to tell SE how to write and I can cope with unresolved story lines. But one that lasts at least a book and a half. Its more confusing me than anything else.



Kaminsod switched to Rhulad was exactly because Hannan Mosag did not want to play ball with him, i.e. Mosag wanted the chaotic power, solidify the Edur territories but he was not going to be expansionist about it.

As for gathering armies, Kaminsod had to work with what he had. Pannion and the K'ell matron, Dryjhna, the Edur, all people broken, oppressed, or in case of Edur - a deadly mix of savage and apathetic.
As for spreading pain, I think he did a fantastic job at that.

I agree with the Karsa point, but the thing is that Kaminsod wanted Karsa to help him, to break his chains, perhaps. And Karsa told him to sod off.

But to be fair, one can lose the entirety of Chain of Dogs from the narrative and just put in the background. Pretty much all of the books had self-contained stories in them, with the grand overarching series of teasers and revelations inter-spread between them.
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#10 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

We eventually find out that Mosag wanted to heal Emurlahn and take the Edur back there, so that was his plan with the power he would get from tCG and Scabandari's finnest. And we really only know how the sword affected Rhulad. Maybe Rhulad's adolescent desire to be a hero and someone who his brothers were proud of, but ultimately ambitious and flawed and weak, corrupted the influence of the sword. Its not a given that the sword would have behaved the same if Karsa took it up. Maybe eventually, like the One Ring concept, it would have corrupted him, but again, we don't know what would have happened to anyone else. I am sure tCG's main desire was to rid himself of the FA and get his heart back, but no more of a priority than anything else that was imminently doomed. Also, Once Paran legitimized the House of Chains, the corrupt influence of the house's priests and worshipers kind of became something different than the ultimate goal of Kaminsod who most likely just wanted to go home.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#11 User is offline   BalrogLord 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostRuthan Good, on 28 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

That's kind of what I was driving at with the Edur, but didn't actually think of that with the Pannion or the Apocalyptica. The frenzied mindless Tenescowri might have been enough to overcome FA's jedi mind tricks, and the 7C rebellion was rich in mages, assassins, and they had L'Oric for a while.


Don`t forget there was that fragment on emurlahn that everyone was making a play for in 7c,
And can someone tell me what the big deal about L`oric is? I know hes the son of osric but he didn`t seem all at powerful, almost getting kileld by a KCCM when he visited that pocket warren in Hoc

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 28 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

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#12 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostBalrogLord, on 28 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

View PostRuthan Good, on 28 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

That's kind of what I was driving at with the Edur, but didn't actually think of that with the Pannion or the Apocalyptica. The frenzied mindless Tenescowri might have been enough to overcome FA's jedi mind tricks, and the 7C rebellion was rich in mages, assassins, and they had L'Oric for a while.


Don`t forget there was that fragment on emurlahn that everyone was making a play for in 7c,
And can someone tell me what the big deal about L`oric is? I know hes the son of osric but he didn`t seem all at powerful, almost getting kileld by a KCCM when he visited that pocket warren in Hoc


I'm with you on L'Oric, when it was revealed who he was I was like WOW, and then it kind of sizzled down to meh, . That being said, not getting killed by a KCCM is an achievement in itself, though I genuinely do not remember that fight even happening, so I can't speak to how it went down. But yeah, the character seemed sorely underused, though he did show up briefly in SW.
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#13 User is offline   Xerxes 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

View PostRuthan Good, on 28 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I agree with the Karsa point, but the thing is that Kaminsod wanted Karsa to help him, to break his chains, perhaps. And Karsa told him to sod off.

But to be fair, one can lose the entirety of Chain of Dogs from the narrative and just put in the background. Pretty much all of the books had self-contained stories in them, with the grand overarching series of teasers and revelations inter-spread between them.


That's a fair point about the Chain of Dogs. Though in a story sense it did provide motivation for a whole host of characters.
I don't really have a big problem with the Rhulad & Eidur storyline per se. I really enjoyed MT. But as I read all 10 books one after the other in the last few months and then finished it. I was just left with a feeling that maybe something more would/should have come from that storyline. Though it was a pretty amazing experience. Still, having said all that, there was a point there in TCG when I though they'd never get out of that fucking desert. But that a whole other thread, probably already existing.
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#14 User is offline   Xerxes 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:27 PM

View PostRuthan Good, on 28 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I agree with the Karsa point, but the thing is that Kaminsod wanted Karsa to help him, to break his chains, perhaps. And Karsa told him to sod off.

But to be fair, one can lose the entirety of Chain of Dogs from the narrative and just put in the background. Pretty much all of the books had self-contained stories in them, with the grand overarching series of teasers and revelations inter-spread between them.


That's a fair point about the Chain of Dogs. Though in a story sense it did provide motivation for a whole host of characters.
I don't really have a big problem with the Rhulad & Eidur storyline per se. I really enjoyed MT. But as I read all 10 books one after the other in the last few months and then finished it. I was just left with a feeling that maybe something more would/should have come from that storyline. Though it was a pretty amazing experience. Still, having said all that, there was a point there in TCG when I though they'd never get out of that fucking desert. But that a whole other thread, probably already existing.
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#15 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:59 PM

I wouldn't say you can toss the Chain of Dogs completely - it's not important directly but the legacy it leaves and depletion of veteran forces in 7C are two major challenges Tavore has to overcome and which are major development points of the power and reputation of the 14th Army.


View PostXerxes, on 28 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I get it on the Karsa thing, but I'm still not sure what he would achieve with that sword making the wielder go mental and all. Karsa as a character was pretty well developed away from the Lether storyline. His temptation and rejection (because the rejection was central to his character) could have been engineered at any point, in Darujhistan say.


Throughout the first book of HoC, doesn't Karsa vow to kill half a dozen gods and goddesses of the major human religions? I think the Crippled God wanted Karsa to fulfill those vows, and wanted him to have a powerful tool with which to do it. The CG says that Karsa is the only one who could wield the sword without going insane. I believe the CG was trying to use Karsa to kill the gods who were Chaining him and draining his power. Whether Karsa does that by using the Teblor to wipe out all civilization or to literally decapitate those gods, it works either way (knowing Karsa, probably both).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling (maybe she should change her name to Sinn).
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:46 AM

View PostD, on 30 November 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

I wouldn't say you can toss the Chain of Dogs completely - it's not important directly but the legacy it leaves and depletion of veteran forces in 7C are two major challenges Tavore has to overcome and which are major development points of the power and reputation of the 14th Army.


I was thinking about this the other night, and how Gardens and Deadhouse tie into the rest of the series.

Gotm and DG are clearly table-setters if you view the series holistically.

Gotm directly sets up MoI
DG directly sets up HoC

Midnight Tides sets up RG
MoI and HC -> Bonehunters

Midnight Tides and Bonehunters -> RG

Toll the Hounds is a random book, holistically speaking

The series continues directly on from RG -> DoD -> TCG
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#17 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

small note on the pannion domin: it didn't matter that it wasn't sustainable. pannion, and through him the crippled god, just wanted to immerse genebackis in pain from coast to coast. he didn't give a damn about any actual empire building.
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#18 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:35 AM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 01 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

small note on the pannion domin: it didn't matter that it wasn't sustainable. pannion, and through him the crippled god, just wanted to immerse genebackis in pain from coast to coast. he didn't give a damn about any actual empire building.


Emotionally he may have wanted to kill just about everyone with the Tenescowri expanding outwards in all directions, being the broken and mangled god that he was. But more importantly he had a lot of strategic goals in the Domin. He used Pannion to take Withal for creating the sword and to make an attempt to grab Rud Elalle (but Menandore didn't let him). Most importantly, he was able to poison the warrens at the center and spread the poison outwards as the Domin expanded, which was a huge blow against the gods and goddesses draining him.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling (maybe she should change her name to Sinn).
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#19 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:05 AM

The crippled god was looking for a mortal sword to implement his will on the world.
For that mortal sword, he had this crazy sword created which basically made the person immortal. But the sword is not for everyone. Karas was groomed for this role and he mentally/physcially would have been a lot stronger than Rhulad and extremely dangerouds.


A lot of influence is "soft". The world is chaotic and you cannot control things precisely so you create fertile conditions that can lead to desired outcomes. This is the nature of power. So throughout the series the crippled god is trying to obtain this sort of power to influence happenings but ultimately he has very little control on the people he entrusted with the power (people like Rhulad). We can't assume Rhulad is follwing exactly what the crippled god wanted. Some of the actions are his own, and some are influenced by the crippled god.


the crippled god wants to create misery. He wants people to share his pain and try to do something about it. They could kill him or fix him but he does not want them to ignore him. Misery spreads unless it is met by compassion (and this is where Tavore, queen of the house of chains comes into the picture)








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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:08 PM

[quote name='Xerxes' timestamp='1354094557' post='1013171']
Thanks guys.


I get it on the Karsa thing, but I'm still not sure what he would achieve with that sword making the wielder go mental and all. Karsa as a character was pretty well developed away from the Lether storyline. His temptation and rejection (because the rejection was central to his character) could have been engineered at any point, in Darujhistan say.

Well CG only manifests (up until the very last point) in like 2 areas doesn't he? He appears in a tent near Daru and then on his little wandering island, so I guess he can only really work through his pawns to increase his influence as much as possible... in MT it's before his houses sanctioning and by that point I guess he wants Karsa to be his... mortal sword? He's knight so I guess so. But TCG doesn't fully understand why people wouldn't want that power after being chained and tortured for so long
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