[Gust Hubb]

Today I got my informal evaluation for my last month of work. All in all, a positive review, but most of the time was spent discussing my social awkwardness. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciated it, but I'm now once again at a loss, as usual when confronted with this continual life problem.

To give a more specific example, one preceptor in my past pointed out that I stare intensely at people (right in the eyes) when they are conversing. I had thought it showed full attention and great interest, a non-verbal communication that I was hearing what they were saying and it was worth all my focus. However, apparently people prefer their conversations to involve looking around the room every so often and not eye contact, 100%.

So now I'm left with the same question: how do I fix it? I piss people off on a regular basis and only every so often feel that I connect with people. I'm not getting something, the unspoken rules of socializing, and it's killin' me.

Anyways, have fun with the topic, I figure the one liners are coming and look forward to them, but I think I'll write more on it one something has crystallized.

[Silencer]

I assume you've tried observing how other people interact? (Surreptitiously and not intensely, i.e. while avoiding weirding everyone else out...) XD Gauging the thought processes and upbringing-influenced social clues just from that can be hard, but it's not difficult seeing that most people who get along well with each other are relaxed, comfortable in each other's presence and attention. You don't want to look like you're not paying attention to the person you're talking with, but over-focusing is creepy because it goes to the other extreme. Glancing away a bit says you're still aware of other things in your surroundings, it allows you (and them) thinking time (or at least an indication of thinking time) and it gives people a break from staring each other in the face (which is itself an "intense" social interaction...have you read the Dresden Files far enough to get the eye contact bit? ).

That aside, if you focus elsewhere you never know when you will see someone you need to talk to just strolling by, and depending on the circumstances it's not entirely impolite to redirect your attention briefly to them to pass on an important message or something if you need to.

It sounds to me like you're taking things a little bit too seriously, rather than relaxing and letting conversations flow and ebb as they are wont (and meant) to do. Don't get me wrong, people love you to pay attention, but there's a difference between that and someone appearing to convey YOU ARE ALL THERE IS IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW FOR ME!!!! Y'know?

Anyway, just my two cents.

[JLV]

Whiskey before you go. That's all it takes. Alcohol is the 100% cure to social anxiety.

[worry]

Gustbert Hubbleton III, as I live and breathe! I was a-wonderin' where you'd run off to!

[Blind Sapper]

In my short life, I have had to learn how humans show emotion through facial expressions, figure out what is properly funny enough to give an acceptable chuckle, and basically mimic everyone else's reactions at the movie theater, and everything else.

Social interactions, especially one-on-one, have certainly been a...learning experience for me. What I have found, through experience, to be most effective is to do this:

When you are approached or hailed, turn towards them and give a small, polite smile if they are an aquaintance or stranger. Use a larger smile if they are a friend or your boss. Make eye contact in the initial greeting and beginning of conversation.

Don't look them in the eye the whole time. Every few minutes or moments, depending on the length of the conversation, you should either avert your gaze or itch your elbow or something.

Proper times to look away briefly:
-during a story or joke
-during lulls in the conversation, or when one of you two is beginning to say a response.
-if something distracting happens

Improper times to look away
-greetings
-when you are recieving important instructions or directions
-saying goodbye


Also, odd as it may sound, It is a good idea to look at the bridge of their nose instead of their eyes. This gives the appearance of interest without actually making real eyecontact.

Hope this helped. If it can work for me, it should work for you.

[Silencer]

Blind Sapper, on 31 August 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

In my short life, I have had to learn how humans show emotion through facial expressions, figure out what is properly funny enough to give an acceptable chuckle, and basically mimic everyone else's reactions at the movie theater, and everything else.

Social interactions, especially one-on-one, have certainly been a...learning experience for me. What I have found, through experience, to be most effective is to do this:

When you are approached or hailed, turn towards them and give a small, polite smile if they are an aquaintance or stranger. Use a larger smile if they are a friend or your boss. Make eye contact in the initial greeting and beginning of conversation.

Don't look them in the eye the whole time. Every few minutes or moments, depending on the length of the conversation, you should either avert your gaze or itch your elbow or something.

Proper times to look away briefly:
-during a story or joke
-during lulls in the conversation, or when one of you two is beginning to say a response.
-if something distracting happens

Improper times to look away
-greetings
-when you are recieving important instructions or directions
-saying goodbye


Also, odd as it may sound, It is a good idea to look at the bridge of their nose instead of their eyes. This gives the appearance of interest without actually making real eyecontact.

Hope this helped. If it can work for me, it should work for you.

This is a pretty good basic formula/outline to follow, nice one!

Still, it's a learning process, and one that you have to get used to and adapt to those around you - but if you're stuck on where to start, Blind Sapper's post is great.

[Wolfy]

Interesting because I've been told I don't do it enough. Looking at a customers face while conversing is fine but I find staring into their eyes just feels unnatural to me.

[lastname]

I used to be, probably still am to whatever extent, as awkward as you can get.

(spoilered because I can't figure out if this fits here or in the 'shame' thread):

Spoiler

I couldn't look anyone in the eye while talking (am still guilty of this to some extent) and couldn't get within a couple of miles of women without breaking into a sweat. Needless to say, I wasn't a very happy teenager. I don't think I necessarily had a what's-that-word-for-life-changing-revelation but I slowly reached the conclusion that my behaviour was funny and that life could be a lot lot worse. Several years down the road, I've somehow managed to get married and have a job that I enjoy (hint: it involves very little personal interaction). My wife ribs me every once in a while about me staring at some woman's legs as I speak but that's OK too

I appreciate the fact that I'm not really qualified to give advice but here are my 2p/c/x/y/z anyway.

It makes sense (I think) that some folks possess better-than-average people skills while others are below-average in this regard. I think that's OK and I don't think it is something that needs a magic pill. You are already cognizant of your perceived weakness and that's a really good start. You do get better at these things with time, even without any sort of conscious effort. Surround yourself with people who recognize your 'awkwardness' and are OK with it and life should be fine. And ... stop staring so damn much!

[Gust Hubb]

It's been a long month worrywort. I appreciate being missed.

-----
Haha, I appreciate the advice on eye contact but I fixed that 6 years ago. It was just an example. Really the problems include timing, getting in people's space, and not saying things that throw people for a loop.

I have, bah dum dum tish, really poor timing when it comes to saying or doing things. I interject comments with bad timing, ask to help when someone is concentrating on something else, etc etc. Easy to recognize, not easy to fix, esp. in the driven culture of medicine where students are happily ignored and one of the most frequent complaints on evaluations is "I didn't really know the student that well. They never spoke up or interacted." I speak up, and am remembered, unfortunately not always fondly.

I just don't understand casual conversation, the consoling pats on the shoulder, the concept of hierarchy. I also strongly dislike insincerity, hypocrisy, lying (white and otherwise), sycophantic behavior, and passive aggressivism. I find these frequently among people I work with, and I think it is part of the social survival paradigm, especially when people are put in situations where they cannot question their superiors or have to link together with people they dislike. But having worked a 9 to 5 before returning to school, I see this outside academics too.

So my working theory has been as such:

• I have trouble putting in the effort to maintain the light social niceties inherent to most day to day interactions (I like to cut to the chase).

• As a result, I not only grate on people's nerves because I have trouble smoothing out my interactions with these niceties but also because a lot of people don't like getting up close and personal (people like their space and don't want to have heart to heart talks when their is conflict. Most people practice conflict avoidance).

• I also get angry easily when I perceive what I believe to be falseness (the hypocrisy, lying, insincerity, etc), particularly when it is coupled with bad behavior (like higher-ups getting leeway even when they are mean or petty, like people making mistakes and trying to cover them up or claim they were the correct decision).

• It's hard for me to separate bad behavior and bad people (my wife says I have a strong sense of justice). Everyone makes mistakes (me especially in that regard), but not everyone is apologetic or even self-improving.

Anyways, hopefully that describes my situation better without turning me into a monster. There's obviously a lot more to my "awkwardness" but this is one of the hurtles I've been working on for many years.

[Obdigore]

I shift between peoples eyes and their mouth when conversing with someone.

I find it easier to 'hear' what they are saying if I'm watching their lips say it and I have no idea why.

Of course, I'm the most socially awkward person on the net, so you probably shouldn't listen to me.

[Tiste Simeon]

Film everyone and watch it back later. That will help and won't be awkward at all!

[Use Of Weapons]

Are you actually, genuinely uninterested in people? I found that they to social interaction for me was finding a connection with people that I was genuinely interested in. People value genuine interest, and are very good at detecting fake interest.

[Gust Hubb]

Use Of Weapons, on 31 August 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Are you actually, genuinely uninterested in people? I found that they to social interaction for me was finding a connection with people that I was genuinely interested in. People value genuine interest, and are very good at detecting fake interest.

I think the problem is I don't smooth things over with attempts at fake interest. I tend to wander off at social gatherings because the conversations are boring or I just can't find the rhythm of the conversation. When I try to join said conversations, it feels disjointed.

[Use Of Weapons]

Could you develop some meta interest if the conversation doesn't interest you? Like, for example, the interactions of the participants and how that demonstrates hierarchy and relationships?

[Satan]

Gust Hubb, on 31 August 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

It's been a long month worrywort. I appreciate being missed.

-----
Haha, I appreciate the advice on eye contact but I fixed that 6 years ago. It was just an example. Really the problems include timing, getting in people's space, and not saying things that throw people for a loop.

I have, bah dum dum tish, really poor timing when it comes to saying or doing things. I interject comments with bad timing, ask to help when someone is concentrating on something else, etc etc. Easy to recognize, not easy to fix, esp. in the driven culture of medicine where students are happily ignored and one of the most frequent complaints on evaluations is "I didn't really know the student that well. They never spoke up or interacted." I speak up, and am remembered, unfortunately not always fondly.

I just don't understand casual conversation, the consoling pats on the shoulder, the concept of hierarchy. I also strongly dislike insincerity, hypocrisy, lying (white and otherwise), sycophantic behavior, and passive aggressivism. I find these frequently among people I work with, and I think it is part of the social survival paradigm, especially when people are put in situations where they cannot question their superiors or have to link together with people they dislike. But having worked a 9 to 5 before returning to school, I see this outside academics too.

So my working theory has been as such:

• I have trouble putting in the effort to maintain the light social niceties inherent to most day to day interactions (I like to cut to the chase).

• As a result, I not only grate on people's nerves because I have trouble smoothing out my interactions with these niceties but also because a lot of people don't like getting up close and personal (people like their space and don't want to have heart to heart talks when their is conflict. Most people practice conflict avoidance).

• I also get angry easily when I perceive what I believe to be falseness (the hypocrisy, lying, insincerity, etc), particularly when it is coupled with bad behavior (like higher-ups getting leeway even when they are mean or petty, like people making mistakes and trying to cover them up or claim they were the correct decision).

• It's hard for me to separate bad behavior and bad people (my wife says I have a strong sense of justice). Everyone makes mistakes (me especially in that regard), but not everyone is apologetic or even self-improving.

Anyways, hopefully that describes my situation better without turning me into a monster. There's obviously a lot more to my "awkwardness" but this is one of the hurtles I've been working on for many years.

Can I suggest that you try to take over the world? Real life needs more misunderstood super villains.

[Roldom]

Obdigore, on 31 August 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I shift between peoples eyes and their mouth when conversing with someone.

I find it easier to 'hear' what they are saying if I'm watching their lips say it and I have no idea why.

Of course, I'm the most socially awkward person on the net, so you probably shouldn't listen to me.

I thought you were only supposed to look at someones mouth in a conversation if you wanted to kiss them? I thought it was supposed to send subconcious messages to the person your talking to.

Roldom...whose eyes move more when talking to a woman than at a tennis match....

[QuickTidal]

The staring thing.

Think of it like this.

If you stare an alpha dog (or any dog really) in the eyes, they take it as a challenge and will either attack you or attempt to do so. It's carved into their nature to see direct eye staring as a sign of another creature trying to discomfit them and make them subservient.

The same goes for humans, though we don't express the discomfort like dogs do, I expect the feeling is the same.

So next time you are conversing with someone, just try to spend most of the time looking beside their head or somewhere nearby and don't be afraid to let your eyes wander as they talk....you ARE still okay to look in their eyes, just not for extended periods of time...as that is (unconsciously) confrontational.

[Vengeance]

Obdigore, on 31 August 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I shift between peoples eyes and their mouth when conversing with someone.

I find it easier to 'hear' what they are saying if I'm watching their lips say it and I have no idea why.

Of course, I'm the most socially awkward person on the net, so you probably shouldn't listen to me.

Having hung out with both you and GH... It is a tie...

Having spent years working in a loud industry I have hearing issues so I tend to stare at peoples mouths when they speak. So your probably deaf too.

GH what you need to do is to spend more time around people in a none work related setting. I have some success with the when in doubt don't talk method. This works well with the wife when she asks me to do something. Also remember that as much as people say they don't like a smart ass they really want to be the smart ass themselves. So be a smart ass.

[Vengeance]

Gust Hubb, on 31 August 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Use Of Weapons, on 31 August 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Are you actually, genuinely uninterested in people? I found that they to social interaction for me was finding a connection with people that I was genuinely interested in. People value genuine interest, and are very good at detecting fake interest.

I think the problem is I don't smooth things over with attempts at fake interest. I tend to wander off at social gatherings because the conversations are boring or I just can't find the rhythm of the conversation. When I try to join said conversations, it feels disjointed.

That is because the topic is boring to you. I used to have this same problem. Then I discovered sports. Now when I am in a pickle I talk about sports. It has made for a few awkward moments like when someone is talking about a family member dying and you suddenly start talking about the injustice of collage football not having playoffs. But hey on the whole it has worked out.

[Wolfy]

Obdigore, on 31 August 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I shift between peoples eyes and their mouth when conversing with someone.

I find it easier to 'hear' what they are saying if I'm watching their lips say it and I have no idea why.

Of course, I'm the most socially awkward person on the net, so you probably shouldn't listen to me.

As someone who understands people better when I can see thier lips I understand, I know why I specifically do it not sure why you might as veng said it's usually a deafness or speech interpretation thing.

This post has been edited by Wolfy: 31 August 2012 - 12:43 PM