[Brujah]

I will be ATTEMPTING to create OUR version of the Hierarchy of the Gods.
This will also rank non gods.
A higher rank is given to the 'more powerful' being.
We shall TRY to determine this by asking who would win in a fight most often.
For example if two close beings fought many times, they would win some, lose some. So assume 7 fights, who would win at least 4. Assume 3, who would win 2. Etc.
It will be based purely on match ups two at a time via Poll. I'm thinking a minimum of 50 votes MAYBE, determine a winner.
I shall attempt to create a democratically chosen Hierarchy of the Gods based on the opinions of MalazanEmpire forum users.

This is the first of many pairing. Choose who ranks higher, or if they shall be on the same tier.
Please try not to view this as a type of cage match. Please vote only if you're quite sure you would like to see them ranked so.
Don't vote if you don't feel you've read far enough into the series. Although I'd strongly suggest reading all the way through Crippled God, at least for this pairing.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 26 June 2012 - 09:12 AM

[Kanese S's]

This is stupid. Rake already killed Draconus.

[Tehol the Only]

Kanese S, on 26 June 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

This is stupid. Rake already killed Draconus.

Draconus was cursed by Kallor and Rake had Envy's help.
Also, Rake didn't kill Draconus, he merely trapped him inside Dragnipur.
Pretty sure Draconus would win in a fair fight (and without Dragnipur).

[Abyss]

The answer is Wolverine.

[Aptorian]

Okay. This seems to be a continuation from the Ultimate powers thread.

Who ranks higher? Lets take a look at their "stats".

Draconus:

Ascendant Elder being, possibly an Elemental being. It is uncertain that he is an elemental or just a creature that predates the birth of the Andi.
I believe that there is a reference that states that he is present not just in the Malazan universe but in countless worlds outside Wu.
He is an Elder God of the Night.
He can veer into a Darkness... thing.
He draws upon Darkness.

Worshippers: Used to be swimming in blood sacrifices. Probably has very little cult worship in this age. Does the power linger?

Weapon: A weapon of darkness that is probably a manifestation of his will. Used to wield the void that became Dragnipur.

---------------------

Anomander Rake:

Ascendant Tiste Andii.
Child of Mother Dark.
Possibly the son of Father Light. or Draconus?
Draconean Soletaken.
The only Archmage we have ever heard of as a title.

Worship: Rake denies his godhood, but does the worship still power him?

Weapon: Grief/Vengeance or Dragnipur.

-------------------

I am not sure how you compare these things.

In terms of ancestors Draconus is the best bet. He is most likely an equal of Mother Dark. If he isn't you could argue that the blood that runs through Rakes blood makes him equal to or potentially more powerful than Draconus. My money is on Draconus.

In terms of aspect they both get their magical power from the same source. If there is a difference between night and dark, it is probably more about philosophy than metaphysics.

Rake has an additional power up from his draconean blood in his veins but considering that Draconus is believed to be able to kill Super Sayian Tiam I don't really think dragon blood matters in a fight between the two.

We know that Rake is considered to be the strongest mage alive. On the other hand we've seen Draconus accidentally destroying an entire people and ruining a perfectly good wasteland as a dramatic entry. It might be a question of Finesse vs brute force here.

In terms of weapons, the one who wields Dragnipur obviously has the advantage. If it was the void vs vengeance I think would call it equal footing. Then it comes down to skill. We know that Rake has beaten Draconus before. We just don't know how. According to legend they fought for 3 whole days. I would claim that if you can fight to the death for 3 whole days trading blows and magic again and again and again before you eventually come to an end, the opponents are so evenly matched in skill that it's not a question of who is best so much as who got the lucky opening.

--------

I don't really think there is a conclusion to be made.

The thing about these power discussions, when we're talking about the gods, is that it's like a discussion about who would win a nuclear war. Both of them has so much power that it doesn't matter who is stronger, they can still kill each other a thousand times over and a direct magical confrontation would just destroy everything in sight with out necessarily resulting in a victory.

[Malaclypse]

hmm, no brainer really.

Rake is the pinnacle of self-control and forethought and already beat Draconus once before, imprisoning him in his own sword.

Rake does what need to be done regardless of the consequences.

Draconus has an ambitious and foolish nature. He fails to act when he should and has done incredibly stupid things - the whole concept behind Dragnipur was utter folly.

Are we entertaining the idea that he's learned the error of his ways after spending however many thousands of years in Dragnipur? I'm not convinced. Rake 10 times out of ten by virtue of having a better brain.

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 26 June 2012 - 07:04 PM

[Aptorian]

I've always thought Rake's "draconean brain" was a strange thing. Because of his blood he is supposed to have a very cold and calculating way of seeing things. It's as though a lizard brain is some kind of super computer that analyzes all possible outcomes. I've never understood how that makes sense when the very nature of a dragon is supposed to be chaos. Wouldn't it have made sense if Rake was fucking bonkers and his mind was constantly switching between "KILL", "FOOD" and "FUCK"? Would certainly have made for a very different Anomander Rake.

[Malaclypse]

Aptorius, on 26 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I've always thought Rake's "draconean brain" was a strange thing. Because of his blood he is supposed to have a very cold and calculating way of seeing things. It's as though a lizard brain is some kind of super computer that analyzes all possible outcomes. I've never understood how that makes sense when the very nature of a dragon is supposed to be chaos. Wouldn't it have made sense if Rake was fucking bonkers and his mind was constantly switching between "KILL", "FOOD" and "FUCK"? Would certainly have made for a very different Anomander Rake.

You have it all wrong, his calculating brain is his own, nothing to do with his draconean blood

[Aptorian]

Really, from especially Korlats intern monologue in MOI, I had the impression that it was the Draconean blood that made him think like this. Of course this could also be a case of the draconean blood simply enhancing his already exceptional mind.

[the broken]

Equals. We don't see the fight. 'Three whole days' could be myth, we see Baruk and Crone laughing at a history that has Rake speaking in poetry at one point. There's no way to know.

[Defiance]

Aptorius, on 26 June 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Really, from especially Korlats intern monologue in MOI, I had the impression that it was the Draconean blood that made him think like this. Of course this could also be a case of the draconian blood simply enhancing his already exceptional mind.

Well, it's from Korlat's perspective. Given how much she likes to get depressed about the nature of her people, it wouldn't surprise me if her thought pattern was something like, "Oh, there's no way a Tiste Andii could be that smart, that objective. We're just brooding and depressed, there's no way there could be anomalies." (Sandalath, anyone?)

Personally, I think it's a combination. Rake was able to incorporate all of the good parts of draconian blood and avoid all the nastiness. I'm sure it aided in his awesome brain powers, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that he was already a highly intelligent and calculating individual before he had a T'iam milkshake.

[blackzoid]

Well, Korlat also has draconian blood in her too...

Of the brothers I have a theory. Rake drank enough of Tiam's blood to have the power, but he still always retains control.
Silchas drank more than Rake and is closer to chaos. Does that make him more calculating? Don't know. Didn't one of the sisters say that his calculating nature enabled him to survive the Azath? That he planned to be thrown in there?

[Ivan Kersovic]

Rake is incredibly old with tonnes of experience. He's a brilliant fighter, a great tactical mind, a great swordsman, he can turn into a giant dragon and he's a top class mage. Though being the son of darkness I guess the power of his warren is almost a natural thing for him

On the other hand we really don't know that much about Draconus other than what other people have called him, and the fact that at some point he ended up inside Dragnipur. It's implies he's some sort of elemental force, in which case I think it's hard to compare him to someone who is a mere ascendant. But that's just my opinion, and it's somewhat tainted by the fact I find Rake a bit whiny and irritating

[Brujah]

Good stuff, guys.
Especially you guys using real scenes and dialogue from the books to help us narrow down things.
Aptorius, nice stuff.
But guys, let's make sure to keep it your opinion based on stuff from the books. Let's leave out anger and personal attacks on other peoples opinions.
Because in the end, its only opinions. We can't really decipher true power.
I am actually further enlightened from everyone else's stuff. And thats the point.
The collective knowledge and opinion of the many will help determine where we rank each character.
I would be happy with any of the three options. Rake over Drac, Drac over Rake, or equal.
Because in the end, they'll both be very high over most everyone else.
I foresee us having to resort to ranking quite a few characters on same tiers.
How could we rank say.....Quick Ben and Karsa? I think that one would he quite hard to gauge.
Therefore we could have a single tier with 5 to 10 spots.
But at least we can come up with a relative scale of power.
Bare with this. It may work out to something useful. If not, nothing lost.

Thanks guys. If anyone else wants to help me by pairing up some close characters by creating a similar poll and running the results for me, please do so.
Perhaps we can get 3 or 4 done every two weeks.
I've already asked some of the people from the Art Subforum to create some cool drawings for the finished project.

[worry]

You got that rare special edition that adds in Rake whining? Cuz my books have none of that at all whatsoever.

[Brujah]

Also, I want you guys input on something that a few people have asked me.

Take for instance: Rake has 25 votes, Drac has 5 votes, and Equal has 30 votes.
Would you guys prefer I set then Equal, based on the 30 votes being highest?
Or would it be more fair to assign each a net vote for every 'equal' vote. This would give a final vote tacky of Rake with 55 and Drac with only 35. Therefore Rake winning.
Understand?
Ok, advice wanted.

[Brujah]

worrywort, on 28 June 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

You got that rare special edition that adds in Rake whining? Cuz my books have none of that at all whatsoever.

Haha, sorry worry. You know I have horrible spelling. Plus I'm posting from my Shitty phone. DAMN auto spell thing.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 28 June 2012 - 09:43 PM

[worry]

I was talking to Ivan, you egotist!

[Brujah]

worrywort, on 28 June 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

I was talking to Ivan, you egotist!

Lol.
I'm so use to being corrected!
I seriously do suck at spelling and overall grammar.

[Ivan Kersovic]

I just get the feeling that masses of the Tiste Andii scenes and POV are basically just emo whining about their endless struggle against nihilism. I mean all Rake did for millennia is try and adopt loads of different causes to stave off the boredom and apathy the TA were all suffering from. I find it a bit irritating to be honest. Draconus spent god knows how long hauling a giant carriage full of corpses and he's still fairly optimistic. Kallor has had who knows how many empires torn down around him and he's still putting some effort in. But the TA sense of self-pity puts me right off. I am not sure how much I want to read the new trilogy, but I guess I'll give it a bash.