[Twiddler]

Just finished the book. Lots of questions but I'll focus on the main plot...

The actions of the Malazans are in service of Tavore's secret plan. Most of the players (and the reader) don't know what's she's thinking, what their goal is, or why. Except to presumably save the world. There are even hints that she started formulating her plan long before. No mention is made of her consulting with the other potential puppet masters.

So do I have this right?

The goal is to rid the world of the Crippled God not just because of his destructive actions; his mere presense is a poison. Also, his worshippers are on the way.

So,

1. Become (or pretend to be) allied with tCG. Fill out the House of Chains.
2. Bring an army to the location of tCG's heart. Defeat the Forkrul keeping it.
3. Give the heart a shot of blood by killing Fener.
3. Steal the heart.
4. Summon the Otataral Dragon (having been recently released by Elder Gods) with the Otataral sword.
5. Have Great Ravens build a body for tCG.
6. Dragon's presence breaks god-made chains.
7. Use tCG, dead Heboric, and two Elder gods to capture Otataral Dragon since it's just as bad as tCG.
8. Have Cotillion kill(?) tCG by stabbing him in the back.

Really?

Do we just assume the Tavore, the gods, Ben, and Ganoes were talking?

Why invade Letheras? Surely Rhulad would help get his master's heart.

Was the Errant manipulated into releasing the Dragon? Or, somehow knowing he was going to do that, make the best of it? The timing doesn't seem to work out for that.

Why cross the Glass Desert? I don't think there was anything special about where they ended up. Have the assassin lizard fly the heart to a nice safe place that's easy to get to.

It seemed like the Crippled God was cooperative to some extent. Did these events require his cooperation? His stabbing certainly seemed like a sneak attack. But it was anticipated by Fiddler, etc. How did tCG think it was going to go?

[Magus Rune]

 Twiddler, on 24 March 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

Just finished the book. Lots of questions but I'll focus on the main plot...

The actions of the Malazans are in service of Tavore's secret plan. Most of the players (and the reader) don't know what's she's thinking, what their goal is, or why. Except to presumably save the world. There are even hints that she started formulating her plan long before. No mention is made of her consulting with the other potential puppet masters.

So do I have this right?

The goal is to rid the world of the Crippled God not just because of his destructive actions; his mere presense is a poison. Also, his worshipers are on the way.

The goal wasn't to "get rid of" the Crippled God. It was to free him so he could leave the planet. His worshipers are all just like gods, in that they seek to bind him, gain power from him, and use him. Cotillion has to kill him so he could be released from his physical form. Why Cotillion? I assume because he's the god of assasins--its fitting to have him kill another god.

Remember that Tavore is not a worshiper. She feels compassion for TCG, because he is trapped and enslaved.

She is not allied with the house, either. She recognizes that TCG is enslaved by his own house. The Malazan army (armies, really) are unique in the fact that they 1) do not worship gods, and 2) abhor slavery.


And Tavor isn't the mastermind behind the plan as far as I can tell. Shadowthrone was. Shadowthrone, Quickben, Kruppe, Tehol, Udinaas...SE has a history of making hyper intelligent humans who are superb at manipulating events to a preferred out come.

Quote

Surely Rhulad would help get his master's heart.

I don't think you paid attention when you read about Rhulad if you really think he's sane enough to do something like that.

[Ceda Cicero]

As to why they had to cross the Glass Desert - it was a tactical maneuver that - by having the Bonehunters emerge from the Glass Desert, the Letherii/Bolkando/Perish/Teblor force to the South, the KCCM under Ges and Stormy at the Spire, and Ganoes and the Host to the North - forced the Assail to split their forces in a way that allowed them to execute the plan.

As to Rhulad, I think there were a few necessities. One it may have backed the Crippled God further into a corner, broken his power so that he would be more amiable to working with Shadowthrone and Cotillion (and by proxy, Tavore, K'rul, Mael, etc) or perhaps have little to no choice in the matter. Just a theory. Other possibilities could be that it was just as much about liberating the Edur from the Crippled God's influence as it was about stamping them out. Most importantly where this question is concerned, though, I would say the idea that Rhulad would "surely" help fetch his master's heart is an oversimplification of his relationship with Kaminsod. Rhulad and the Crippled God didn't exactly have a warm and fuzzy master/servant bond. And Rhulad was, for the most part, completely mad and self-absorbed, ruled by his own ambition. Even supposing he had been of a mind to help Tavore, do you think she would've been willing to subjugate herself and the Bonehunters to a leader like Rhulad? Imagine what it would have been like if Rhulad and a handful of Edur had led the Malazan escort army out of Letheras, across Bolkando, through the Wastelands, around the Glass Desert, and into battle against the FA, rather than Brys. Given his track record, I'm thinking it wouldn't have ended nearly as well.

I think that we are meant to be left in the dark to a degree as to if/how much Tavore was actually in contact with Shadowthrone and Cotillion. As I've said multiple times in this forum already, I'm of the mind that they had at least one instance of direct contact. When this began is hard to say, although she tells her officers early on that she was set on this course "the day House Paran lost it's only son." Whether that means she took up the course when she heard that Ganoes died in Genabackis, or when Ganoes forsook (to a degree at least) his nobility to go into the army, or hell, possibly even when Ganoes was pulled onto his own path as Master of the Deck, I'm not entirely sure.

As to the degree to which the Crippled God was in on the plan and cooperating with its execution, there are some rather telling (though not fully revelatory) passages throughout the book. Remember those instances in italics when the Crippled God seems to be getting a monologue, except when you read it over again it looks more like one side of a two way conversation? Those are conversations with Shadowthrone (with Shadowthrone's input omitted). The first one is within the first 20 pages of the book, I believe (it was in the Tor excerpt.) That gives you some idea as to when and how Shadowthrone approached the Crippled God about the plan.

This post has been edited by Cicero: 24 March 2011 - 06:18 PM

[Feathersmith]

 Cicero, on 24 March 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

I think that we are meant to be left in the dark to a degree as to if/how much Tavore was actually in contact with Shadowthrone and Cotillion. As I've said multiple times in this forum already, I'm of the mind that they had at least one instance of direct contact. When this began is hard to say, although she tells her officers early on that she was set on this course "the day House Paran lost it's only son." Whether that means she took up the course when she heard that Ganoes died in Genabackis, or when Ganoes forsook (to a degree at least) his nobility to go into the army, or hell, possibly even when Ganoes was pulled onto his own path as Master of the Deck, I'm not entirely sure.

I took that comment of hers to refer to Ganoes going into the military, instead of following in the family business. And then when Tavore reveals she's - apparently - a Talon, it leaves me wondering if her being set on this path is a result of her father passing on the Talon heritage to her, which might otherwise have gone to Ganoes, and that brought along with it some contact with ST. Since she (or someone, Felisin?) also says that Ganoes disappearance/desertion/death on Genabackis "broke" their father, I'm assuming that whatever allegiance to the Emperor that was passed on to Tavore happened before Ganoes disappeared.

Given her lifelong obsession with military strategy and study, she may have already been well on her way regardless of what happened to her brother.

I'm rereading DH right now, trying to pay attention to setup for events in tCG, and wondering how much of what happens with Heboric here was somehow planned/setup, because his role in the end is so crucial. There aren't any suggestions - well, that I picked up on - that he was somehow pushed into touching the jade statue, so . . . I don't know. Similarly, was the 7C rebellion - which draws Tavore and a fleet to that continent - set up, or simply taken advantage of as a way to move pieces around? Rereading and looking for clues and setup has made me very paranoid.

[Lister of Smeg]

I know what you mean about the paranoia. I'm reading too much into every detail. Like Hood's acolyte in the DG prologue, the one made entirely of flies that bursts apart by Heboric. I started wondering if that was a foreshadowing of Fener's death nine books later. But it can't be ... can it?

Also, I remember Paran being shown Heboric and co around the Jade Statue in MoI (by the Azath?). So maybe it was set up for Heboric to touch the finger. And then who pushed his stump into his heart tattoo, thus calling down Fener? Baudin. A Talon, just like Tavore. But ... nah, it can't be. Can it?

[Twiddler]

 Magus Rune, on 24 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

The goal wasn't to "get rid of" the Crippled God. It was to free him so he could leave the planet. His worshipers are all just like gods, in that they seek to bind him, gain power from him, and use him. Cotillion has to kill him so he could be released from his physical form. Why Cotillion? I assume because he's the god of assasins--its fitting to have him kill another god.

Remember that Tavore is not a worshiper. She feels compassion for TCG, because he is trapped and enslaved.

She is not allied with the house, either. She recognizes that TCG is enslaved by his own house. The Malazan army (armies, really) are unique in the fact that they 1) do not worship gods, and 2) abhor slavery.


And Tavor isn't the mastermind behind the plan as far as I can tell. Shadowthrone was. Shadowthrone, Quickben, Kruppe, Tehol, Udinaas...SE has a history of making hyper intelligent humans who are superb at manipulating events to a preferred out come.

I don't think you paid attention when you read about Rhulad if you really think he's sane enough to do something like that.

I won't argue that the goal wasn't to "release" the Crippled God. They may have felt sorry for him but I doubt they would have given so many lives just for that.

Fiddler calls Tavore the Consort of the House of Chains. Sounds allied to me.

I was kind of kidding about Rhulad. I was trying to draw attention to the Malazans being directly opposed to the machinations of the Crippled God just before aligning with him.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Twiddler, on 24 March 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

 Magus Rune, on 24 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

The goal wasn't to "get rid of" the Crippled God. It was to free him so he could leave the planet. His worshipers are all just like gods, in that they seek to bind him, gain power from him, and use him. Cotillion has to kill him so he could be released from his physical form. Why Cotillion? I assume because he's the god of assasins--its fitting to have him kill another god.

Remember that Tavore is not a worshiper. She feels compassion for TCG, because he is trapped and enslaved.

She is not allied with the house, either. She recognizes that TCG is enslaved by his own house. The Malazan army (armies, really) are unique in the fact that they 1) do not worship gods, and 2) abhor slavery.


And Tavor isn't the mastermind behind the plan as far as I can tell. Shadowthrone was. Shadowthrone, Quickben, Kruppe, Tehol, Udinaas...SE has a history of making hyper intelligent humans who are superb at manipulating events to a preferred out come.

I don't think you paid attention when you read about Rhulad if you really think he's sane enough to do something like that.

I won't argue that the goal wasn't to "release" the Crippled God. They may have felt sorry for him but I doubt they would have given so many lives just for that.

Fiddler calls Tavore the Consort of the House of Chains. Sounds allied to me.

I was kind of kidding about Rhulad. I was trying to draw attention to the Malazans being directly opposed to the machinations of the Crippled God just before aligning with him.

That they were opposed to his machinations but still able to get on board with the basic principles and reasons for freeing him are hardly mutually exclusive.

And I think there's a lot of overlap in terms of motives here, don't think there's a single, easy answer. We know that, at least on Shadowthrone and Cotillion's end, this really just began as a ploy to secure their place in the pantheon and show up all the other gods, but then snowballed in to much more, and Cotillion even seems to imply there's a possibility that they were swept up in the "compassion" element along with Tavore.

As I see it, here are the main motives:

-Extending unconditional compassion to a being that, despite some pretty horrific acts, has been suffering undeservedly in a foreign realm for ages and ages.
-Once and for all saving Burn from the Crippled God's poison (when Kaminsod ascends QB is thinking, "I did it! I promised I'd save her, and I did!" paraphrase.)
-Thwarting the Forkrul Assail who, if they had had their way, would have used the Crippled God to open Akhrast Korvalain and purify the world.
-Preventing another Jadeocalypse.
-Shaking up the pantheon by sticking it to all the gods that have been siphoning power from Kaminsod.

[Twiddler]

 Cicero, on 24 March 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

As to why they had to cross the Glass Desert - it was a tactical maneuver that - by having the Bonehunters emerge from the Glass Desert, the Letherii/Bolkando/Perish/Teblor force to the South, the KCCM under Ges and Stormy at the Spire, and Ganoes and the Host to the North - forced the Assail to split their forces in a way that allowed them to execute the plan.

I know she gives that explanation for the tactics. The Brys army was the diversion for the real mission to be performed by the Adjunct. The Assail dismissed the notion of an attack from the Glass Desert and didn't assign forces to meet them until later. But the Adjunct's mission only required the heart and her sword (and staying alive) not a particular location. It would of made more sense if her force was the one that grabbed the heart, requiring her to be in the right place at the right time.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Twiddler, on 24 March 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

 Cicero, on 24 March 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

As to why they had to cross the Glass Desert - it was a tactical maneuver that - by having the Bonehunters emerge from the Glass Desert, the Letherii/Bolkando/Perish/Teblor force to the South, the KCCM under Ges and Stormy at the Spire, and Ganoes and the Host to the North - forced the Assail to split their forces in a way that allowed them to execute the plan.

I know she gives that explanation for the tactics. The Brys army was the diversion for the real mission to be performed by the Adjunct. The Assail dismissed the notion of an attack from the Glass Desert and didn't assign forces to meet them until later. But the Adjunct's mission only required the heart and her sword (and staying alive) not a particular location. It would of made more sense if her force was the one that grabbed the heart, requiring her to be in the right place at the right time.

There's no way the Bonehunters could have survived or come close to succeeding in a direct assault on the Spire - my understanding was the Ges and Stormy's KCCM are the only ones who could've stood up to that, which is why they were sent. Further, it took Tavore's sword some time to summon Korabas, time that the Bonehunters would not have had with Kolansii soldiers and the full power of Akhrast Korvalain from Reverence (against which, I should add, the KCCM were MUCH more resilient) coming down hard on them.

[worry]

 Cicero, on 24 March 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:

 Twiddler, on 24 March 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

 Magus Rune, on 24 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

The goal wasn't to "get rid of" the Crippled God. It was to free him so he could leave the planet. His worshipers are all just like gods, in that they seek to bind him, gain power from him, and use him. Cotillion has to kill him so he could be released from his physical form. Why Cotillion? I assume because he's the god of assasins--its fitting to have him kill another god.

Remember that Tavore is not a worshiper. She feels compassion for TCG, because he is trapped and enslaved.

She is not allied with the house, either. She recognizes that TCG is enslaved by his own house. The Malazan army (armies, really) are unique in the fact that they 1) do not worship gods, and 2) abhor slavery.


And Tavor isn't the mastermind behind the plan as far as I can tell. Shadowthrone was. Shadowthrone, Quickben, Kruppe, Tehol, Udinaas...SE has a history of making hyper intelligent humans who are superb at manipulating events to a preferred out come.

I don't think you paid attention when you read about Rhulad if you really think he's sane enough to do something like that.

I won't argue that the goal wasn't to "release" the Crippled God. They may have felt sorry for him but I doubt they would have given so many lives just for that.

Fiddler calls Tavore the Consort of the House of Chains. Sounds allied to me.

I was kind of kidding about Rhulad. I was trying to draw attention to the Malazans being directly opposed to the machinations of the Crippled God just before aligning with him.

That they were opposed to his machinations but still able to get on board with the basic principles and reasons for freeing him are hardly mutually exclusive.

And I think there's a lot of overlap in terms of motives here, don't think there's a single, easy answer. We know that, at least on Shadowthrone and Cotillion's end, this really just began as a ploy to secure their place in the pantheon and show up all the other gods, but then snowballed in to much more, and Cotillion even seems to imply there's a possibility that they were swept up in the "compassion" element along with Tavore.

As I see it, here are the main motives:

-Extending unconditional compassion to a being that, despite some pretty horrific acts, has been suffering undeservedly in a foreign realm for ages and ages.
-Once and for all saving Burn from the Crippled God's poison (when Kaminsod ascends QB is thinking, "I did it! I promised I'd save her, and I did!" paraphrase.)
-Thwarting the Forkrul Assail who, if they had had their way, would have used the Crippled God to open Akhrast Korvalain and purify the world.
-Preventing another Jadeocalypse.
-Shaking up the pantheon by sticking it to all the gods that have been siphoning power from Kaminsod.

And of course Rake must have been on it at least in part, and the Eleint, TL, MD, Korabas issues were all at stake as well. Frankly I don't think ST and Cots had to plan everything -- they knew a lot of what was gonna happen from their travels in the Azath and probably from Tayschrenn as well. They didn't have to manipulate everything that happened, just take advantage of it.

[Wappadu]

I think there was some talk early on about using the magic deadening properties of the Glass Desert to hide the army until it was too late for the FA to react. At the time, I assumed the plan was for Brys/Queen/KCCM to draw off the bulk of the armies south, allowing Tavore to go into ninja mode a la the Lether invasion to steal the heart.

Instead, it seems like plan A was to have the heart delivered to what was supposed to be an undetected Bonehunter army for the unchaining/resurrection/stabbing of the Crippled God. I don't remember how the FA got wind of their tiny force. Was it Deadsmell drawing on Hood's Elder mojo to heal Tavore? In any event, they were always intended to be one last speedbump to buy time for Shadowthrone's plans to succeed. They had enough other elements in play that the FA couldn't spare the manpower to deal with the Bonehunters in time.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Wappadu, on 24 March 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

I think there was some talk early on about using the magic deadening properties of the Glass Desert to hide the army until it was too late for the FA to react. At the time, I assumed the plan was for Brys/Queen/KCCM to draw off the bulk of the armies south, allowing Tavore to go into ninja mode a la the Lether invasion to steal the heart.

Instead, it seems like plan A was to have the heart delivered to what was supposed to be an undetected Bonehunter army for the unchaining/resurrection/stabbing of the Crippled God. I don't remember how the FA got wind of their tiny force. Was it Deadsmell drawing on Hood's Elder mojo to heal Tavore? In any event, they were always intended to be one last speedbump to buy time for Shadowthrone's plans to succeed. They had enough other elements in play that the FA couldn't spare the manpower to deal with the Bonehunters in time.

They detected the Bonehunters once they emerged from the Glass Desert, and at that point, Brother Grave and one of the female pures were en route to deal with Paran and the Host. The two Pures split their forces after determining that Paran was far enough away to present the lesser of the threats, with Brother Grave going for the heavies and marines, and the Sister setting up to fight Tavore and the regulars.

This post has been edited by Cicero: 24 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

[Sindriss]

You have to realize that freeing a tortured soul (god) was only part of the reason. His worshippers had crossed the universe in search for him and finally found him. The entire planet or whatever, would have been destroyed by those jade statues falling down.

That is why she said they would be unwitnessed, as very few people would realize just what happened in that desert and how it has impacted the earth.

[Kanubis]

There's one thing I've been musing over.

I'd always assumed that Tavore got the idea/plan/communication from ST to do all this after she left Unta to lead the 14th against the Apocalypse, but after reading TCG I'm more and more thinking that it seems it started long before that - that her being there to take the role of Adjunct following Lorn's death was probably no coincidence, and part of some plan somewhere..

[Black Company]

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...

[Defiance]

 Lister of Smeg, on 24 March 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

I know what you mean about the paranoia. I'm reading too much into every detail. Like Hood's acolyte in the DG prologue, the one made entirely of flies that bursts apart by Heboric. I started wondering if that was a foreshadowing of Fener's death nine books later. But it can't be ... can it?

Also, I remember Paran being shown Heboric and co around the Jade Statue in MoI (by the Azath?). So maybe it was set up for Heboric to touch the finger. And then who pushed his stump into his heart tattoo, thus calling down Fener? Baudin. A Talon, just like Tavore. But ... nah, it can't be. Can it?

The flies were foreshadowing Heboric's death in book six. Just before the Unbound come and make diced meat of him, the area gets swarmed by flies.

[Shinrei]

I thought the Talon that Tavore had made it pretty clear that the connection to ST ran deep and for a long time. I thought the maneuverings of ST and Rake and the other major players was more like a massive game of chess rather than just taking advantages where they appeared - it was all about anticipation of what the other players would do, and what advantages that would afford.

[worry]

Yah, I tend to think it was all of the above though, rather than just one or the other. Rake is the one who could think about a thousand things at once...not sure if even ST could do that. So it's possible they had contingency plans for all sorts of events, along with fore-knowledge of a lot of what was gonna happen, along with taking advantage of some genuine surprises (especially post-Rake's sacrifice). Draconus and Icarium, for instance, were unpredictable but that unpredictability was acknowledged and accounted for, if that makes sense.

[Twiddler]

 Black Company, on 25 March 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...

There was a location where everything came together, but nothing inherently crucial about that location. D'rek came there to protect the ritual againt the Forkrul. Why not avoid the Forkrul altogether? Like, for example, staying with, or behind, the main force. I know there's not much point in arguing "what if" scenarios. It just seemed that crossing the Glass Desert was an epic undertaking with a huge cost and I can't figure out why it was necessary.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 Twiddler, on 28 March 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

 Black Company, on 25 March 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...

There was a location where everything came together, but nothing inherently crucial about that location. D'rek came there to protect the ritual againt the Forkrul. Why not avoid the Forkrul altogether? Like, for example, staying with, or behind, the main force. I know there's not much point in arguing "what if" scenarios. It just seemed that crossing the Glass Desert was an epic undertaking with a huge cost and I can't figure out why it was necessary.

No. The sword was needed to be there in the barrow because that's were D'rek was and D'rek was needed to protect the BH from the deadening power of the OD who was needed to dissolve the magical chains binding the CG.