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Forkrul Assail & Jaghut their only war, their greatest war

#1 User is offline   Seras 

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 01:38 AM

this is a question regarding the Jaghut war(s)
when Endest meets Caladan near the river, they have a conversation, eventually leading up to talk about the Jaghut. a "war" between the Jaghut and the Forkrul Assail (possibly still going on) is mentioned. one, which shattered the Jaghut's unity. later on, Tulas Shorn has a conversation with Kallor, of the Jaghut's only, and greatest war against Death itself.
are they the same war, or seperate? are the Fokrul Assail somehow associated with High House Death and perhaps Death-Aspected? did they once rule High House Death?

This post has been edited by Erayle: 08 October 2009 - 01:39 AM

Lives and loves, the gamut of existence was marked by such things. A breaking of paths, the ragged, uneven ever-forward stumble. Blood dried, eventually. Turned to dust. The corpses of kings were laid down and sealed in darkness and set away, to be forgotten. Graves were dug for fallen soldiers, vast pits like mouths in the earth, opened in hunger, and all the bodies were tumbled down, each exhaling a last gasp of lime dust. Survivors grieved, for a time, and looked upon empty rooms and empty beds, the scattering of possessions no-one possessed any longer, and wondered what was to come, what would be written anew on the wiped-clean slate. Wondering, how can I go on?
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#2 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 02:52 AM

View PostErayle, on 08 October 2009 - 01:38 AM, said:

this is a question regarding the Jaghut war(s)
when Endest meets Caladan near the river, they have a conversation, eventually leading up to talk about the Jaghut. a "war" between the Jaghut and the Forkrul Assail (possibly still going on) is mentioned. one, which shattered the Jaghut's unity. later on, Tulas Shorn has a conversation with Kallor, of the Jaghut's only, and greatest war against Death itself.
are they the same war, or seperate? are the Fokrul Assail somehow associated with High House Death and perhaps Death-Aspected? did they once rule High House Death?


Well I'm pretty sure that there were some FA that fought with the Jaghut in the war on death, so no, the FA weren't associated with Death I don't believe (and definitely not HHD because this war would have been well before the time of houses, perhaps before even the holds). I am not sure about the war between the Jaghut and FA though...if i had to guess I would say that it was probably not a real open war, but two peoples with antithetical ideologies on life. The Jaghut wanted only to live in harmony with the world (excpeting the Tyrants) and preferred solitude. The FA apparently built large cities, and wanted to adjudicate (re: end by destruction) any inharmony in the world. So back in the day, if any Jaghut and FA bumped into each other, there was probably a pretty big fight. Since FA and Jaghut are all but extinct from the world, that is why the war may still be ongoing, even though there may be millennia between battles...All that being said, we have next to no information on either of these events, so its pure speculation on my part.
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#3 User is online   Mentalist 

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 02:53 AM

huh
great catch, have rep

I was forced to actually re-read the fragment you talked about.

however, I don't think it's the same war.

the way Brood makes it sound, it's more of "their cultures were direct opposition"

following the Jaghut war on Death, it seems the Jaghut became isolationist/loners they are now, and FAs are portrayed as the opposite--since from what we've seen so far in the series (not much, admittedly), they all share a common purpose of "ultimate peace"

whilst they do seem to always be bringing death, I doubt they are aspected to it, especially given that the King of HHD is a Jaghut.


edit: direct quote

Quote

They (Jaghut) were witnesses to the purest manifestation of arrogance and separation


this is Brood describing the FAs. The Jhaghut were their opposite, being, apparently "without arrogance" at all.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 08 October 2009 - 02:56 AM

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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 08 October 2009 - 03:29 AM

thanks for the responses, it helped to clear things up greatly.
seems like i missed some subtle, or perhaps not so subtle hints about it not being an actual war :p
Lives and loves, the gamut of existence was marked by such things. A breaking of paths, the ragged, uneven ever-forward stumble. Blood dried, eventually. Turned to dust. The corpses of kings were laid down and sealed in darkness and set away, to be forgotten. Graves were dug for fallen soldiers, vast pits like mouths in the earth, opened in hunger, and all the bodies were tumbled down, each exhaling a last gasp of lime dust. Survivors grieved, for a time, and looked upon empty rooms and empty beds, the scattering of possessions no-one possessed any longer, and wondered what was to come, what would be written anew on the wiped-clean slate. Wondering, how can I go on?
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Posted 14 October 2009 - 01:13 AM

after yet another re-read, i stumbled on this:
"Was there war?"
"Was?"
"Gods below, Caladan. No war can last that long."
"It can, when the face of the army is without relevance."
"Where?"
"Far away from here, friend, which is well. Image what your Lord might elect to do, if it was otherwise"
He would intervene. He would not be able to stop himself.

the above lead to a few doubts about this being a war of ideals, seeing as Rake could do little to sway the Jaghut or Assail.
any ideas?
Lives and loves, the gamut of existence was marked by such things. A breaking of paths, the ragged, uneven ever-forward stumble. Blood dried, eventually. Turned to dust. The corpses of kings were laid down and sealed in darkness and set away, to be forgotten. Graves were dug for fallen soldiers, vast pits like mouths in the earth, opened in hunger, and all the bodies were tumbled down, each exhaling a last gasp of lime dust. Survivors grieved, for a time, and looked upon empty rooms and empty beds, the scattering of possessions no-one possessed any longer, and wondered what was to come, what would be written anew on the wiped-clean slate. Wondering, how can I go on?
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Posted 14 October 2009 - 05:50 PM

View PostErayle, on 08 October 2009 - 01:38 AM, said:

...are the Fokrul Assail somehow associated with High House Death and perhaps Death-Aspected? did they once rule High House Death?


I don't think we've ever seen anything to suggest this.

View PostWhiskeyJackDaniels, on 08 October 2009 - 02:52 AM, said:

Well I'm pretty sure that there were some FA that fought with the Jaghut in the war on death, ...


Based on what? because we saw there were dragons, but otherwise i don't think any other race was referred to.

View PostMentalist, on 08 October 2009 - 02:53 AM, said:

...however, I don't think it's the same war.
...


Agreed. I don't recall any ref to the FA in the context of the Jaghut War on Death.

View PostErayle, on 14 October 2009 - 01:13 AM, said:

after yet another re-read, i stumbled on this:
"Was there war?"
"Was?"
"Gods below, Caladan. No war can last that long."
"It can, when the face of the army is without relevance."
"Where?"
"Far away from here, friend, which is well. Image what your Lord might elect to do, if it was otherwise"
"He would intervene. He would not be able to stop himself."

the above lead to a few doubts about this being a war of ideals, seeing as Rake could do little to sway the Jaghut or Assail.
any ideas?


I figure this is happening on Assail. I have only pure speculation and theory to support that, but one could see how a war between two immortal races, one of whom is capable of bodyjumping, could spread over a continent and simply continue on ad infinitum.

It would also explain why the Tlan Imass are having such a hard time of it, beacuse FA and Jaghut are on a similar or higher power level.

- Abyss, could say they were assailed.
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Posted 14 October 2009 - 10:54 PM

In Reaper's Gale, doesn't the Errant mention the FA wanted to kill him and the Jaghut came to his defense?
Also, the tyrants on Assail are human aren't they? I remember the T'lan Imass mentioning that in MOI
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Posted 14 October 2009 - 10:59 PM

Maybe there were no FA in the fight on death. But I have some vague recollection of a line in the books somewhere that talks about some FA fighting in a huge war, and you knew where they had fallen because there were masses of enemy dead surrounding them. I'm gonna go quote-hunting now to try and figure it out...
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Posted 15 October 2009 - 05:32 AM

so perhaps the War with death is still going on....? despite the "impossible victory in the heat of defeat" that was mentioned, (which i happened to make another thread about, responses indicated this victory to be Hood becoming King of High House Death)
maybe one or the other could unknowingly be helping "Death" or perhaps, Death = Chaos? in the sense that Death = Oblivion, as was with what happened in Dragnipur (or did the people trapped inside go to Hood? who apparently resigned :S)
Lives and loves, the gamut of existence was marked by such things. A breaking of paths, the ragged, uneven ever-forward stumble. Blood dried, eventually. Turned to dust. The corpses of kings were laid down and sealed in darkness and set away, to be forgotten. Graves were dug for fallen soldiers, vast pits like mouths in the earth, opened in hunger, and all the bodies were tumbled down, each exhaling a last gasp of lime dust. Survivors grieved, for a time, and looked upon empty rooms and empty beds, the scattering of possessions no-one possessed any longer, and wondered what was to come, what would be written anew on the wiped-clean slate. Wondering, how can I go on?
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Posted 15 October 2009 - 06:02 AM

View PostMentalist, on 08 October 2009 - 02:53 AM, said:

huh
great catch, have rep

I was forced to actually re-read the fragment you talked about.

however, I don't think it's the same war.

the way Brood makes it sound, it's more of "their cultures were direct opposition"

following the Jaghut war on Death, it seems the Jaghut became isolationist/loners they are now, and FAs are portrayed as the opposite--since from what we've seen so far in the series (not much, admittedly), they all share a common purpose of "ultimate peace"

whilst they do seem to always be bringing death, I doubt they are aspected to it, especially given that the King of HHD is a Jaghut.


edit: direct quote

Quote

They (Jaghut) were witnesses to the purest manifestation of arrogance and separation


this is Brood describing the FAs. The Jhaghut were their opposite, being, apparently "without arrogance" at all.

I agree with you Ment. Could be the Jaghut lost their arrogance and became what they are now after the war on Death ended (if it ended at all...), and the FA/Jaghut war came later.

DoD semi-spoiler:
Spoiler


Still, it seems that their famous nobility ('some people are too noble to be enemies') is a common thread throughout their history, and could have clashed with a FA perspective. Whether this was before or after is tough to say, as the only time the Jaghut ever

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 15 October 2009 - 06:05 AM

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:56 PM

View Postvagabond, on 14 October 2009 - 10:54 PM, said:

In Reaper's Gale, doesn't the Errant mention the FA wanted to kill him and the Jaghut came to his defense?
Also, the tyrants on Assail are human aren't they? I remember the T'lan Imass mentioning that in MOI



I don't remember the exact details, but i think there was a ref to the FA taking issue with the Errant's followers and wiping them out. The Jaghut link was more subtle, something about Jaghut runes on a temple aspected to the errant...? Quote fu anyone?

In MoI it was said that the Tyrants on Assail are human, but in and of itself, that statement doesn't mean much. They could be possessed by Jaghut, ascendents, or some other variation that the Imass are not aware of, being too busy being chopped into pieces.

But... RCG SPOILER SPOILER REF TO RCG SPOILERS

Spoiler


In my thinkymeatz at least, Assail is a continent ruled over by Tyrants who have been basically throwing their entire population at each other in ceaseless battles for ages in some sort of 'game' that only holds meaning to them.

- Abyss, could be wrong.
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Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:38 PM

View PostAbyss, on 15 October 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

View Postvagabond, on 14 October 2009 - 10:54 PM, said:

In Reaper's Gale, doesn't the Errant mention the FA wanted to kill him and the Jaghut came to his defense?
Also, the tyrants on Assail are human aren't they? I remember the T'lan Imass mentioning that in MOI



I don't remember the exact details, but i think there was a ref to the FA taking issue with the Errant's followers and wiping them out. The Jaghut link was more subtle, something about Jaghut runes on a temple aspected to the errant...? Quote fu anyone?

In MoI it was said that the Tyrants on Assail are human, but in and of itself, that statement doesn't mean much. They could be possessed by Jaghut, ascendents, or some other variation that the Imass are not aware of, being too busy being chopped into pieces.

But... RCG SPOILER SPOILER REF TO RCG SPOILERS

Spoiler


In my thinkymeatz at least, Assail is a continent ruled over by Tyrants who have been basically throwing their entire population at each other in ceaseless battles for ages in some sort of 'game' that only holds meaning to them.



- Abyss, could be wrong.

this is all true but when envy meets lanas tog on that floating city during MoI tog tells her that the enemy on assail is human.

pretty sure that the t'lan is named lanas tog. if she is i am amazed at my instant recall of such a minor characters name

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 15 October 2009 - 03:39 PM

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#13 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:53 PM

The FA's conflict with the Errant was indeed a bunch of FA killing a lot of the Errant's worshippers, because the Errant had become a god of change, keeping things from ever stagnating, while the FA supported the idea of perpetual sameness (which is, after all, extreme Order). The Errant killed a bunch of FA in that exchange.

Additionally, there's Silchas Ruin killing a ton of FA (seen by Kettle in a dream in MT), the T'lan Imass fought many wars against FAs (noted by Onrack in HoC) including the one against Calm at Laederon. Then you've got the Just Wars with FA vs Tiste Liosan, both dying in large numbers. Can't think of any others off-hand.

The Jaghut-FA link in MT was that the FA had created secret tomb-like places to hide Jaghut (or vice-versa?), and that was where Shurq and Harlest were hiding out. Doesn't have anything to do with the FA's attacks on the Errant, that I recall.


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Posted 15 October 2009 - 08:11 PM

Then there's also the supposed connection between FAs and the Nameless Ones--recall that FA was the guardian of the Lether Azath, and (possibly) of Tremolor as well, and the FA soul was part of Kettle.

naturally, I have no idea where i'm going with this particular stream of thought, but i'm not sure that it's the war being fought on Assail, because Anomander has sent scouts to Assail, so he's aware of what's going on there but did not interfere.

anyway, I think the conflict b/w Jaghut and Assail might be taking place on Jacuruku, since we know even less about that place than we do about Assail.

and yes, just because Jaghut were a united people before the war on death doesn't mean they had an army before.
and yes, I agree with whomever said their arrogance was broken after they lost that war.

Putting it in perspective, the battlefield in the heart of the Ice Hold that Hedge walks through in RG was attributed to T'lan Imass before, but if Hood ascended after the defeat in the war against Death, could that have been the moment when the power of the Ice Hold began to wane?
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 16 October 2009 - 05:09 PM

View PostD, on 15 October 2009 - 07:53 PM, said:

Additionally, there's Silchas Ruin killing a ton of FA (seen by Kettle in a dream in MT), the T'lan Imass fought many wars against FAs (noted by Onrack in HoC) including the one against Calm at Laederon. Then you've got the Just Wars with FA vs Tiste Liosan, both dying in large numbers. Can't think of any others off-hand.

If i remember correctly, Onrack mentions that the T'Lan Imass never actually won against FA. At all. The most they managed to do was seal them, and for calm they needed Icarium's help.
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