[Abalieno]

I've been one of the most strenuous defender of Erikson's work up to this point, on Martin's forums for example. Now I'm reading House of Chains and I think I found a part that is truly disappointing and actually matching the critics I read. I know that this book is usually the least appreciated in the series so I consider is as some kind of a test. I think the first 420 pages are even better than usual. They have more focus and Erikson executes his usual tricks with more control. The only part that I consider weaker is about Cutter and Apsalar whose relationship and characters had a not so well done and not completely believable development. The rest I think goes from good to brilliant.

Instead the part that I think was rather badly handled and conceived is about Kalam and the fortress on the cliff where a Malazan squad is under siege. The premise is wonderful and that's why the resolution is even worse. I leave a very good section where Kalam accepts his usual Bridgeburner's duty: "first in, last out". Which builds expectations. Then instead Kalam wakes up in the night and goes out to check out the situation. Absolutely no one is awake or wakes up, but he easily meets the other mage who will join his side. In the meantime some guards die of poison, writhing about, but waking no one still. Malazan soldiers that where under siege in that fortress have the freedom to come down by rope and hang about, have a happy chat with Kalam, then the other mage. After that scene Kalam goes back to his tent and out of the blue calls an hideous demon who pisses on his tent with his two penises, set it on fire, and then proceeds to kill everyone else in the camp with his six limbs and an incredible number of mysterious weapons strapped to his body. That's all, the siege is over.

Well, that was lame and, in particular, unnecessary. Why Erikson had to describe this demon pissing on Kalam tent and setting it on fire? It's an unnecessary scene that feels truly awkward and misplaced. Them walking freely about the camp, then having a chat with the "enemies" from above, all without the whole Malazan camp even stirring awake, then getting completely slaughtered by a handy demon coming out of nowhere.

This whole scene rather well summarizes some of the most typical critics. That Erikson pulls deus ex machina to solve situations (the appearance of the demon), that he does fluff like bad ass scenes that are only there to be cool (demon killing everyone off the scene) and that some other scenes are gratuitous (the pissing on the tent part).

For the first time I really don't know what Erikson intended to do there. When he uses a conventional trick or a standard fantasy trope it's always to turn it on its head and use it in some subversive or innovative or creative way. He always has a purpose with what he does, never does anything unnecessary. But this just looked to me like "standard magic item" saving the day without anything interesting about it. Even worse it kinda ruined a scene since I was really looking forward to see a tense situation as Kalam had to work quickly with his double crossing, joining the other side without being killed in the process. Nothing of that since the demon gave him a free pass, a demon coming out of nowhere and described as the most deadly thing to appear in the series up to this point. Matching those who compare Erikson with Dragonball and the impromptu an convenient appearance of something that exceeds in power everything else.

Obviously it's not like a few pages ruin the book or everything I've read up to this point, but I was still quite disappointed because it's the first time that I think the critics I usually read are rather deserved, even if limited to an handful of pages. And it's also the first time that I clearly felt the "fantasy" element completely disrupt the narrative, since the lack of super powers or super beings appearing would have easily led to a much more interesting scene than the gratuitous one Erikson put in its place.

The appearance of magic and omnipotent demon felt like an intrusion, and I also can't connect with Apsalar and Cutter characters that are just too disconnected and other-wordly to be sympathetic. Along with the silly plot of Minala and the 1300 kids and the appearance of more badass characters like Pearl. I see a pattern developing and me finding the "supernatural" elements as weak points in a book that would be at the same level of quality if not superior to the previous three.

Hopefully these moments stay rare, or reveal something more interesting that I missed (or are used more cleverly than just feeding the adolescent left in me).

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 03 May 2010 - 12:13 AM

[anothevilbadguy]

How is it Deus Ex? He had been given the diamonds to be used, from a God and the scene is mainly set up to illustrate demons' strengths. And all it did was kill sleeping/poisoned men, who were led by a clearly incompetent leader, and it is also clear they are the dregs of Seven City traitors, who where only willing to fight with massive odds in their favour.
However, I would have rather Kalam was a bit more involved, and it may be seen as a bit unnecessary and over-the-top to have such a character as the demon.

I also had problems with the kids, it seems like they are just kids. Why not just use a load of demons, or make them like Panek.

Also, why do you think Pearl is particularly badass? In the world of Malazan he is reasonably normal, although quite likeable.

[worry]

It's been a long time since I've read this book, and I can't really argue with such a personal take on the events at hand, but besides that I have a few reactions to your post.

"Gratuitous" is inherently in the eye of the beholder. I could actually do with way more sex (of the non-rape variety), violence, and demon piss than is present in this series. I think fantasy is too often artificially chaste, and shies away from horror even in situations that should evoke some stomach churning since there's usually plenty of sharp-clawed monsters running around. I think SE comes particularly close to depicting rather than merely describing brutality, and he usually doesn't leave it off screen. I don't remember it well enough right now to say, but I would wager that this off-screen annihilation of this camp has to do with SE's sense of humor more than pulling off some sort of ruse on the reader, or avoiding a real fight scene. Also, a two-pronged demon peeing all over Kalam's tent strikes me as pretty funny, personally.

In terms of deus ex machina, I think that's a particularly weird complaint for this series since the gods explicitly do exist, and take deliberate steps to move along their agendas, and there's plenty of magic to go around. In fact, the use, abuse, and origin of magic is one of SE's main concerns with the series, I'd say. I get that d.e.m. is a literary device, but in this particular literary work people do call on demons to do their dirty work. Perhaps the alternative you suggested would have been more interesting, I dunno, but I don't recall thinking anything here felt out of the blue.

Lastly, I think the notion that SE never does anything unnecessary, or is always flipping fantasy tropes on their heads, is kind of an unfair expectation placed on the author, however flattering. I mean, he wouldn't be writing fantasy if he didn't like the genre, it's not some grudge he's carrying out. He definitely has a flair for doing the unexpected, and he's experimental on a wide variety of fronts, but every step he takes in the plot can't be another declaration of independence from Tolkienism. I don't think a talking frog was particularly original or necessary, but I liked him just the same. Not that I'm saying he's not capable of an actual, genuine miss-step from time to time too, but I say all this just to urge you to stick with it, warts and all, cuz it's worth it.

[amphibian]

The tent on fire part was partly an emphasis of how different the demon was from humans and partly a way to describe the demon's nasty sense of humor. I had no problems with that scene. Recall that Kalam encounters several different Whirlwind bands and they are mostly a bunch of thugs using the rebellion as an excuse to settle old grudges, kill people and take things that don't belong to them. Discipline, particularly in a siege longer than a couple of days, has been a problem in real history with those type of forces and this presumably carries over to the Malazan world also. There aren't that many thugs keeping the Malazans in the cliff fortress. In fact, they want to be in there. It's easily defensible, they can get out whenever they want and it's a good vantage point to formulate plans for travel and goals. Furthermore, the nastiness of the type of demon shown here is rather crucial to a later scene in the books.

As for Kalam walking around camp, he wasn't. He's a top-level assassin and moves around quietly. He spoke to Sinn, but a very soft conversation isn't going to alert a bunch of sleeping thugs to anything.

As for the demon being the most deadly thing in the books so far - no. As of HoC, it's probably Raest.

I think you could benefit from relaxing a bit. Here and on the Martin forums. I know you like the Malazan world and have bought multiple copies of the books, discuss them elsewhere and generally evangelize a bunch. However, getting hoity-toity about Werthead's opinions in the way that you describe on your site will get you labeled as a troll (even if Erikson's actual writing mechanics have gotten better in my eyes as the books have gone along). Heck, I even consider you a borderline troll for the insistence on getting some kind of apology from Erikson for timeline mistakes and copyediting stuff. You've mellowed out lately and I recognize that though. Keep on truckin'.

[Abalieno]

anothevilbadguy, on 03 May 2010 - 12:51 AM, said:

How is it Deus Ex? He had been given the diamonds to be used, from a God and the scene is mainly set up to illustrate demons' strengths.

It's that it's typical fairy tale structure:
- Magic item is donated
- Magic item saves the day

When Erikson uses standard stuff is always to use it in a clever way. In the same way he takes fantasy canons (like undeads) to then turn them on their head or parody or twist or criticize them.

In that case the use was plain. The demon coming from an unknown dimension that never came into play.

Quote

And all it did was kill sleeping/poisoned men, who were led by a clearly incompetent leader, and it is also clear they are the dregs of Seven City traitors, who where only willing to fight with massive odds in their favour.

Which was a rather interesting set up that was then completely wasted by magic badassery.

Quote

I also had problems with the kids, it seems like they are just kids. Why not just use a load of demons, or make them like Panek.

The problem I have with that subplot is that it just appears as ridiculous. A single woman dealing with 1300 kids, it just bogs the mind. Up to this point it's all off the scene, thankfully. I think that even Erikson has no idea of how to write that scene without making it look ridiculous.

Quote

Also, why do you think Pearl is particularly badass? In the world of Malazan he is reasonably normal, although quite likeable.

Well, not Pearl himself. But he was involved in a "I'm more badass than you" showoff as he met Stormy.

This book seems to insist a bit more than usual in this type of showoff powerplay that was usually better handled previously (with the exception of the Seguleh) and was never gratuitous juvenile fanservice.

I don't even need to go back to the previous books for comparisons, the supernatural/fantastic element in Karsa's storyline (about Teblor cults, the faces in the rocks etc...) was handled perfectly. Erikson used previous knowledge to reveal mysteries and play with the reader's perceptions and twist them every two pages. The same for the small revelations about Otaratal. The fantastic element enhances the narrative there. While in other parts the supernatural badassery is staring to feel a bit gratuitous and used too plainly.

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 03 May 2010 - 01:16 AM

[Silencer]

Well, you will find out more about the demon's purpose later in the books. The destruction of the camp is a set up for later events, trust me.

So are the kids...Cotillion saved them because he does actually still have a heart, and then he has to find things for them to do. Erikson will deal with this more later.

The poison part was meant to be a measure of how insane Sinn is - it's a particularly nasty thing to do for little reason, and Kalam sees this and doesn't want things to go down that way. He uses the diamonds given to him by a Shadow god (note it's use of the shadows when it's climbing up the wall...don't see any D.E.M. here as it is all explained and reasonable...) to sort out the rest of the camp, sparing the soldiers from the misery of the poison while providing a great distraction for him to get into the Malazan strongpoint.

What you're either missing or haven't anticipated is that Erikson doesn't twist things on their head every two pages. He plays a long game with some of the plot points he uses, and that can mean chapters, half a book, or several books before you get the payoff. Some things he just drops, and that's also something you have to accept because he isn't into resolving every little bit of detail for us. Some view that as wasteful, others as incompetence...to most of his fans that's part of his brilliance.

I think what I felt with this scene was that it did rush to a conclusion. But then, I didn't feel that there was that much in the way of buildup, either...I wasn't looking forward to anything except perhaps some neat assassin action, but the way it was handled wasn't a letdown for me either.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abalieno, on 03 May 2010 - 01:14 AM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 03 May 2010 - 12:51 AM, said:

How is it Deus Ex? He had been given the diamonds to be used, from a God and the scene is mainly set up to illustrate demons' strengths.

It's that it's typical fairy tale structure:
- Magic item is donated
- Magic item saves the day

When Erikson uses standard stuff is always to use it in a clever way. In the same way he takes fantasy canons (like undeads) to then turn them on their head or parody or twist or criticize them.

In that case the use was plain. The demon coming from an unknown dimension that never came into play.

Well the dimension it comes from is shadow. i kind of think that it comes into play somehow. cotillion gave them to kalam to use.

[Black Winged Lord]

I like to think of this siege from Kalam's perspective.

First he is given these diamonds by a most untrustworthy god, which he accepts hesitantly.
If I recall correctly he recognizes the Azalan demon, but doesn't seem to know much else about it, until it races through the camp and kills a couple hundred soldiers in less than a minute.

He still has a handfull of other gems.
I think its fair to say he was shitting his pants when he considered that, and wonders what he has got himself into now.

I actually liked the whole pissing scene, as it was fairly left-field. But as someone says it does show how different some of these alternate life forms are. If you're not disturbed by things like Jaghut (raest), and an ultra bendy Forkrul Assail, then a demon with an extra penis isn't that much of a leap.

Can it really be a deus-ex if it has multiple impacts through the book (not to mention later books)??

[Ulrik]

In that case is whole moranth ammunition "deus  ex" in your view. (but in real, not azalan, not moranth grenados work that way in storyline)

Sorry mate, cant take you serious, even I tried, if you are concerned with solid details like demon pissing...oh...with penis! I think even demons piss...fu...erm, make love... And kill bunch of robbers trying to pretend "we are warriors of high cause!" if someone says "do it!".

No, its simple. Kalam doesnt need to be worried about loyalty. He does need to try diamonds. And its simplier to let them be slaughtered by demon than going and cutthroating by himself. That can do hero encumbered by tropes. Here, he just releases demon pissing fire and watch. Whats more mature?




EDIT: btw - you really wanted apology from SE because of storyline?

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 03 May 2010 - 05:32 AM

[Abalieno]

Ulrik, on 03 May 2010 - 05:32 AM, said:

EDIT: btw - you really wanted apology from SE because of storyline?

No, some people invent rumors out of the blue for unknown reasons. (and I don't regret or reconsider anything I've written here or elsewhere)

Ulrik said:

In that case is whole moranth ammunition "deus ex" in your view. (but in real, not azalan, not moranth grenados work that way in storyline)

Moranth munitions are usually used as war devices, not plot devices. In this case the disappointment was because the scene was carefully set up and then bent and wiped off. It's a bunch of minor elements that all together were a bit grating (including the demon killing 10 people every second, or a camp of 500 people where NO ONE is awake, goes to take a piss or whatever). The scene, as a whole, was a bit cheesy, while it was set up to be more dramatic (the 500 people killed off-screen by overpowered demon surely is the opposite of dramatic effect, it actually kills it completely).

worrywort, on 03 May 2010 - 12:56 AM, said:

I don't remember it well enough right now to say, but I would wager that this off-screen annihilation of this camp has to do with SE's sense of humor more than pulling off some sort of ruse on the reader, or avoiding a real fight scene. Also, a two-pronged demon peeing all over Kalam's tent strikes me as pretty funny, personally.

Well, off-screen annihilation as some form of joke could be definitely a style of Erikson I recognize.

The point is that I couldn't perceive the scene like that. I didn't get it. Same for the pissing demon. I'm not shocked or disgusted, it's just that I don't see the sense of humor if not in saying "my piss is more badass than yours because I'm a badass demon and I'm so frightening".

What I mean is that when I was reading I considered the scene of the piss as just a cheesy way to tell how badass this thing was, but it felt really cheesy and groan-inducing more than actually give awe or shock or dramatic intensity. So, if you put all this together, we go from dramatic tension building up in previous sections, to a resolution that goes in the opposite direction and feels like "failing". A climax that falls very low and that for this reason I called disappointing.

More abstractly: the magic element completely killed or downplayed the dramatic intensity built up to that point.

Then I read a few pages further and there was a wonderful scene in the Nascent that redeemed everything that came before: http://www.cesspit.n...rupal/node/1960

[Ulrik]

Abalieno, on 03 May 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

Ulrik said:

In that case is whole moranth ammunition "deus ex" in your view. (but in real, not azalan, not moranth grenados work that way in storyline)

Moranth munitions are usually used as war devices, not plot devices. In this case the disappointment was because the scene was carefully set up and then bent and wiped off. It's a bunch of minor elements that all together were a bit grating (including the demon killing 10 people every second, or a camp of 500 people where NO ONE is awake, goes to take a piss or whatever). The scene, as a whole, was a bit cheesy, while it was set up to be more dramatic (the 500 people killed off-screen by overpowered demon surely is the opposite of dramatic effect, it actually kills it completely).

Nope...its same plot/ war device. Sorry, but you cant make difference in "artifacts" how it suits you. Moranth ammunition solves many parts of story by exactly same style. "Oh, what a badass enemy...catch cusser you motherfucker! And that was another big bad d´ivers".
What I see is that you mean it was scene perfect for some complicated Kalam´s moral dilemma, big battle etc. I didnt and more importantly, SE didnt. For me, Azalan slaughtering drunken band of robbers is...well not dramatic. Just well put into whole corruption of Apocalypse arc.

You cant rant that author isnt making scenes like you want:) Thats like cursing in MoI that Imass well set up to charge Kell Hunters and damn, they didnt! Shame on you Se, shame on you! You made a big mistake! It wasnt set up in your dreamed way. It was just set up to show some characters, explain how Apocalypse rots and Azalan is bad. And Kalam smart and not some stupid "classic fantasy trope liking asssassin hero".

[Verjigorm]

Ulrik, on 03 May 2010 - 08:23 PM, said:

Nope...its same plot/ war device. Sorry, but you cant make difference in "artifacts" how it suits you. Moranth ammunition solves many parts of story by exactly same style. "Oh, what a badass enemy...catch cusser you motherfucker! And that was another big bad d´ivers".

I totally agree. Just a quick DG reminder...plop...a warren opens...plop...out comes a trader...plop...and all the effort to deliver Moranth ammo out of thin air to Fid. And guess what? He uses it in a fight. And throughout the series, it's kind of ridiculous how often Malazans stumble about an old stash of Moranth ammo in the middle of nowhere. For me, Moranth ammo is a Deus ex machina running gag in the series. So, if you don't complain about that, the Azalan shouldn't be a problem.

About the demon pee (lol, never thought I would start a sentence in a serious discussion with this), I saw it as something animal-like. The demon is marking his territory. Personally, I think that SE shows demons who are used by humans in the same way animals are. Therefore, a few of these earlier demon scenes in the series support this view by the demon's behaviour. Rafo for more on this, but you'll see that your perception of demons will change later in the series.

Regarding Apsalar and Crokus. I really love that they are so detached. This is one of the great tragic elements of the series. In every cheesy fantasy story, they would believe in each other, in their love and face the world together. But SE shows us two young, vulnerable teens, who have shut down from what they experienced and build a wall up between them. Actually, this is a really realistic behaviour for emotionally wounded characters. Therefore the relationship between Crokus and Apsalar is always one of the highlights for me, cause you can imagine a cheesy, perfect world, where they live happily ever after, but you can also see that the harsh malazan reality makes this scenario far less likely.

[worry]

Yah, I think SE deals fairly well with trauma...clinical depression (minus the clinics), shell shock, PTSD, etc. aren't eschewed just because it's a fantasy.

[masan's saddle]

Just a quick point about the Azalan demon and Kalam using "it".

Iirc, Cotillion gives the diamonds to Kalam to use as he is on a mission for him. Using it in the camp negates the possibility of Kalam going on a kill crazy rampage and killing 500 people by himself...............
As for everyone being asleep ? The rebellion is over in this part of 7C and the Mezla have been routed. The soldiers in the cliff face keep are seriously outnumbered and have nowhere to go, they also have a defensible position and a water supply (albeit with something lurking in it). It's not so much a seige, more of a picnic hence the lack of serious night time pickets. I also seem to remember that the commanding "officer" is not an officer, more of a jumped up corporal deserter from the Ashok or something, hence the sloppy running of the camp. I don't think Kalam would use an Azalan lightly as they are supposed to be used when he gains access to the Whirlwind. I think he says somewhere that their (Azalan) presence would be noted by the goddess if they cross the whirlwind wall. I think using the demon when he did could be interpreted as Kalam sticking 2 fingers up at Cotillion by reiterating that he is first and foremost a Malazan soldier, NOT an agent of Shadow. The primary purpose of releasing the Azalan afterall is to help rescue some trapped Malazans.

Spoiler

The Azalan/ diamonds also come in handy as currency (when Kalam purchases those sexy blades). They also come in very handy when the Deragoth turn up ! So you could argue that they are not Deus ex machina, but integral plot devices for Kalam's developing POV.

Also, if i'd been stuck in a diamond for god knows how long, i'd be busting for a slash too !!!

If anything, pissing on Kalam's tent gives the Azalan a bit of character, I like him/her/it.

This post has been edited by masan's saddle: 06 May 2010 - 01:25 PM

[Illuyankas]

Remember the OP hasn't reached that part yet, MS, you need to spoiler the third line up from the bottom for the moment.

[masan's saddle]

Oops, thought he'd read the whole book.

I spoilered EVERYTHING !

[Use Of Weapons]

Also, the classic structure you mention is emphatically not a DEM device, which would require that the magic object which saves the day not be introduced before it was used. You seem to be using DEM as a broad-brush pejorative, when it has a fairly limited sphere of application.

[D'rek]

DEM would infer that, as stated, there is some sort of "save the day" bit. But Kalam already had a plan to get up to the marines (use the 3rd siege tower), and then he didn't even need that because the marines came down on ropes to climb. Using the ropes to get up would not have somehow awoken the entire camp, so the Azalan killing a bunch of whirlwind soldiers while grabbing the commander is not "saving the day", its just things going a little bit differently but not really changing anything. The marines could have held up in the fortress or gone out the back if they wanted. Likewise, Kalam and Sinn could've gotten in with the marines with or without the Azalan's rampage.

[Abalieno]

I still don't like that part and it's development, the whole thing with the Toblakai/demon under water who then migrates to the winged reptile (that would require a better description) while the Toblakai is now possessed by the reptile itself and made champion of the beast thing, all triggered by chance by Kalam... It all seemed too convenient and not convincing. Too much stuff, considering the world as a whole, happens around few characters. Too tightly controlled and convenient.

It's also bundled with the part of Cutter on the island joining the fight against Edur. Even here the plot feel too streamlined and convenient, with events happening right the second they are required to be. Like an action movie waiting the very last second to defuse the bomb.

But then this is mostly fanservice between much more interesting and deeper parts. It seems I don't like the whole Kalam and Cutter threads. The rest is excellent. Which is also coherent with DG, since I thought that the Kalam and Fiddler threads toward the end of the book were weaker than the rest. And in MoI, where I didn't like the Toc part (Seguleh in particular).

I'm thinking that some of these aspects of the plot would work better if they were not directly described. Oddly enough I think the books would improve with some more obfuscation.

[zenMichael]

Abalieno, on 09 May 2010 - 06:27 PM, said:

But then this is mostly fanservice between much more interesting and deeper parts. It seems I don't like the whole Kalam and Cutter threads. The rest is excellent. Which is also coherent with DG, since I thought that the Kalam and Fiddler threads toward the end of the book were weaker than the rest. And in MoI, where I didn't like the Toc part (Seguleh in particular).

I'm thinking that some of these aspects of the plot would work better if they were not directly described. Oddly enough I think the books would improve with some more obfuscation.

If it helps, you could maybe assume that off screen even MORE fanservicey badass stuff was happening? like that skeletal dragon we saw flying? after it left the screen it went off and fought ... like ... a giant ... robot werewolf and it was AWESOME and then halfway through the fight the werebot through out a pokeball from which sprang Rambo Claus, bringing merry death to all around him and it was MORE AWESOME. No? Maybe a little?

I love the Toc part simply because it's from the POV of Toc, my favorite character in the series. And I love him so much b/c he's seriously like, 'WOW I'm around all these badasses. I'm gonna stay to the rear of the group, I think, cuz what the hell do I bring?' And of course his loss cuts deeper than probably any other wound could've to the group. With no one around to tease LE grows bored pretty quickly, and of course Tool misses his friend, etc. If you're ambivalent or less about Toc, though, I could see how those sections might seem a bit ridiculous (I certainly feel that way sometimes about the Karsa bits, esp. in book 7).