[Laistlin]

Hi Everyone!

This is my first post to the forums and I just want to say hi to everyone. I am working my way through the books and really loving them. They are so deeply involved and sometimes I feel like I need to discuss the depth with people, and I can't find anyone else around me who has read them. So, here I am. I just finished Midnight Tides and really enjoyed it. However, there is one thing that is consistently frustrating me and that is the continual vague hints to the history of the world. I feel like there is enough to be confusing and important, but not enough to really understand. So, I’m going to lay out the history of the world as I understand it. Please let me know what is wrong with my theories and expland upon them!

Starting with the earliest society and working forward. Major events in history:

1 – Forkrul Assail Society ( They start killing/judging people who would this be?)
2 – Various Tiste Races Arrive (from another world? are created?)
3 – KCCM and Jaghut societies thrive
4 – Tiste (and Jaghut?) destroy KCCM
5 – Rise of the T’lan Imass
6 – Imass vs. Jaghut wars start
7 – Jaghut wiped outish
8 – T’lan Imass binding ritual
8 – Rise of humans (First Empire)
9 – First Empire destroyed by T’lan Imass (can someone explain why?)
10 – Building of the world as it is in GoTM

Also in there somewhere is Kallor and his destroyed empire, but where?

Thanks!

[H.D.]

Laistlin, on 14 October 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

Hi Everyone!

This is my first post to the forums and I just want to say hi to everyone. I am working my way through the books and really loving them. They are so deeply involved and sometimes I feel like I need to discuss the depth with people, and I can't find anyone else around me who has read them. So, here I am. I just finished Midnight Tides and really enjoyed it. However, there is one thing that is consistently frustrating me and that is the continual vague hints to the history of the world. I feel like there is enough to be confusing and important, but not enough to really understand. So, I’m going to lay out the history of the world as I understand it. Please let me know what is wrong with my theories and expland upon them!

Starting with the earliest society and working forward. Major events in history:

1 – Forkrul Assail Society ( They start killing/judging people who would this be?)
2 – Various Tiste Races Arrive (from another world? are created?)
3 – KCCM and Jaghut societies thrive
4 – Tiste (and Jaghut?) destroy KCCM
5 – Rise of the T’lan Imass
6 – Imass vs. Jaghut wars start
7 – Jaghut wiped outish
8 – T’lan Imass binding ritual
8 – Rise of humans (First Empire)
9 – First Empire destroyed by T’lan Imass (can someone explain why?)
10 – Building of the world as it is in GoTM

Also in there somewhere is Kallor and his destroyed empire, but where?

Thanks!

The funamental flaw in your attempt is that SE has said that his time-line is broken, and makes no sense at times.

D'rek has various time-line's in her sig if you'd like to take a look at her attempt to mesh them together.

But, I'd group it like this:

KCCM, Jaghut, FA, Toblakai are the original 4.

Then come the Imass. Humans and their offshoots come from the Imass.

Before the humans, but after the Imass, the Tiste Andii and Edur invade.

I'd say that this is the time of the First Empire (Imassi), when they hunt down the remaining Jaghut.

Lots of nothing happens, the world is all sorts of screwed up due to Omtose Phellack, and eventually:

You have the Human First Empire and the Kallorian Empire pop up at relatively close time frame to each other (relatively meaning we are speaking in hundreds of millenniums on this entire time-frame).

So... That's a cheap and brief attempt up through MT, things become more confused and a little more clarified through 9 books.

Edit: Welcome!

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 14 October 2009 - 06:48 PM

[Mortal Sword of Mael]

Don't forget about Thelomen Toblakai and Trell. Also, the history could be divided into different magic periods, that is this of Holds and that of Warrens. Warrens come later on, if I'm not mistaken, even though Holds overlap with them to some extent.

Spoiler

What's more, there's yet one more race to fit into the pattern, mentioned in The Bonehunters. And an interesting distinction regarding one of the other races is made in Return of the Crimson Guard.

Hell, I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler or not.

This post has been edited by Mortal Sword of Mael: 14 October 2009 - 08:44 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Laistlin, on 14 October 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

Hi Everyone!

This is my first post to the forums and I just want to say hi to everyone. I am working my way through the books and really loving them. They are so deeply involved and sometimes I feel like I need to discuss the depth with people, and I can't find anyone else around me who has read them. So, here I am. I just finished Midnight Tides and really enjoyed it. However, there is one thing that is consistently frustrating me and that is the continual vague hints to the history of the world. I feel like there is enough to be confusing and important, but not enough to really understand. So, I’m going to lay out the history of the world as I understand it. Please let me know what is wrong with my theories and expland upon them!

Starting with the earliest society and working forward. Major events in history:

1 – Forkrul Assail Society ( They start killing/judging people who would this be?)
2 – Various Tiste Races Arrive (from another world? are created?)
3 – KCCM and Jaghut societies thrive
4 – Tiste (and Jaghut?) destroy KCCM
5 – Rise of the T’lan Imass
6 – Imass vs. Jaghut wars start
7 – Jaghut wiped outish
8 – T’lan Imass binding ritual
8 – Rise of humans (First Empire)
9 – First Empire destroyed by T’lan Imass (can someone explain why?)
10 – Building of the world as it is in GoTM

Also in there somewhere is Kallor and his destroyed empire, but where?

Thanks!

I want you to remember something for the remainder of your stay on this board, and the rest of the time you are reading the books. "The timeline is not important." Say it into a recorder, put it on repeat, and go to sleep listening to it.

That being said there are a couple of discrepancies with things that you say happened in your timeline. Yes, we see in MT that the Andii and Edur come to this realm and war with the KCCM that they run into. But its important to note that the biggest reason we are given for the downfall is a civil war between the normal K'Chain Che Malle, and the short tail K'Chain Nah Ruk. Also one important thing about the wars between the Jaghut and Imass. The Imass did seem to be winning, but then the remaining Jaghut seemed to unveil Omtose Phellack on the world and basically start an ice age. Since this made it impossible to find food, or continue their war in the mortal flesh, the had the T'lan ritual to finish the job. And finally to answer your question about the First Empire: many of the citizens of it became soletaken or D'ivers (apparently it was just the in vogue thing to do as an alternative to ascendancy). Then apparently there was a mass ritual to turn the entire population into soletaken that went horribly wrong, they all went insane, the T'lan Imass stepped in and slaughtered the population to restore some order, probably because they had a special relationship with soletaken (Olar Ethil was the first soletaken).

[D'rek]

Laistlin, on 14 October 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

Hi Everyone!

This is my first post to the forums and I just want to say hi to everyone. I am working my way through the books and really loving them. They are so deeply involved and sometimes I feel like I need to discuss the depth with people, and I can't find anyone else around me who has read them. So, here I am. I just finished Midnight Tides and really enjoyed it. However, there is one thing that is consistently frustrating me and that is the continual vague hints to the history of the world. I feel like there is enough to be confusing and important, but not enough to really understand. So, I'm going to lay out the history of the world as I understand it. Please let me know what is wrong with my theories and expland upon them!

Starting with the earliest society and working forward. Major events in history:

1 – Forkrul Assail Society ( They start killing/judging people who would this be?)
2 – Various Tiste Races Arrive (from another world? are created?)
3 – KCCM and Jaghut societies thrive
4 – Tiste (and Jaghut?) destroy KCCM
5 – Rise of the T'lan Imass
6 – Imass vs. Jaghut wars start
7 – Jaghut wiped outish
8 – T'lan Imass binding ritual
8 – Rise of humans (First Empire)
9 – First Empire destroyed by T'lan Imass (can someone explain why?)
10 – Building of the world as it is in GoTM

Also in there somewhere is Kallor and his destroyed empire, but where?

Thanks!

Looks pretty good, though you've got a couple things a bit out of order. If we're keeping this strictly to the Malaziworld and not bothering with other worlds/warrens, and also not spoiling anything beyond MT, then I'd rearrange it like this:

1 - beginning of K'Chain races and societies
2 - beginning of the Deragoth and early humanoids on Seven Cities (as seen when L'oric goes to find Osric in HoC)
3 - General beginnings and rise of Jaghut, Forkrul Assail, Thelomen-Toblakai and Imass races
4 - KCCM vs Nah'ruk civil war erupts on Genebackis; first Andii and Edur invasions on Lether who immediately war with the K'Chain on Lether
5 - Imass begin overthrowing their Jaghut gods, Liosan invasions, Tiste races war amongst each other
6 - The 33rd Jaghut War (against Raest), during which the Imass become the T'lan Imass
7 - Establishment of the First Empire; general war-ful co-existance between remaining Jaghut, FA, T'lan Imass, Toblakai, remaining Imass, Andii and Edur. Tiste Liosan pack up and leave the world.
8 - Gradual decline of the above races and rise of humans, Trell, Barghast, Moranth, Teblor, Tarthenal, etc.
9 - Establishment of the (human) First Empire, Barghast land encampments, Trell society, etc
10 - Establishment of the Kallorian Empire, further spread of humanity and more decline of older races.
11 - Fall of First Empire, fall of Kallorian Empire, beginning of seperate civilizations on Lether, Seven Cities, Quon Tali, Korel, Genebackis, etc.
12 - Founding of the Malazan Empire

oh, and as for the fall of the 1st Empire, its causes were many and varied. Part of it is the Beast Ritual (meant to make it easier for people to become soletaken) went wrong, the emperor Dessimbelackis enacted some crazy rituals we can't talk about much yet, and there was a big civil war to overthrow the emperor (as seen by Kalam at the end of HoC), and many more causes...

[maro]

The lack of clear timeline/history is what makes the series so rich - it's all interpretive. It's similar to Arnor in LOTR - hints and placenames but little real detail. You flesh it out in your head.

[Lousy]

At this point (MT) it seems we've gotten a fair amount, to a good deal of info on the backgrounds for most of the races ... except the Forkrul Assaile. At what point do we learn more about them? Come to think of it, I can't wait - what is their story? In brief....

[Puck]

Well, you get quite an infodump on the FA in MT, and also a few bits and pieces in RG.

[Lousy]

Aaaahh, very good then, and I think I've just enounctered the first FA of the book...

[worrywort]

That might be the Forkrul Chemalle.

[D'rek]

Lousy, on 26 July 2010 - 07:42 PM, said:

Aaaahh, very good then, and I think I've just enounctered the first FA of the book...

(except for the one in HoC)



(and the dead one in DG)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 26 July 2010 - 08:31 PM

[Lousy]

(lol - ok, from MT I meant)I recall the one from HoC, but not from DG. The one thing made clear so far, to me anyway, is that the FA are extremely dangerous...

Worrywort - what in blazes is a Forkrul Chemalle?? That scares the hell outta me...

This post has been edited by Lousy: 27 July 2010 - 05:12 AM

[D'rek]

Lousy, on 27 July 2010 - 05:12 AM, said:

Worrywort - what in blazes is a Forkrul Chemalle?? That scares the hell outta me...

Well because FA tend to live solitary lives far from their own kind, they often get lonely, and might spend a weekend at the K'Chain Che'malle enclave a few leagues down the road with lots of social lubricant involved...

That or WW is just being silly.

[ansible]

Lousy, on 27 July 2010 - 05:12 AM, said:

(lol - ok, from MT I meant)I recall the one from HoC, but not from DG. The one thing made clear so far, to me anyway, is that the FA are extremely dangerous...

The dead one in DG was the guardian of Tremorlor at one point:

Deadhouse Gates, Tor trade paperback, p.516 said:

"Relax. There is no gate in here that offers a shapeshifter anything," Apsalar said, slowly rising, her eyes on the withered corpse behind Fiddler. "That would have been the Keeper - each Azath has a guardian. I'd always assumed they were immortal..." She stepped forward, kicked at the bones. She grunted. "Not human - those limbs are too long, and look at the joints - too many of them. This thing could bend every which way."

Mappo lifted his head. "Forkrul Assail."

"The least known of the Elder Races, then. Not even hinted of in any Seven Cities legend I've heard."

[Garden Rake]

Lousy, on 27 July 2010 - 05:12 AM, said:

(lol - ok, from MT I meant)I recall the one from HoC, but not from DG. The one thing made clear so far, to me anyway, is that the FA are extremely dangerous...

Extremely dangerous....and bendy - like an ascended limbo dancer.

[Lousy]

This is certainly some interesting info on the FA (especially the theorized passionate encounters between them and the KCCM) , however, what exactly do they look like?

Going by the 4 oft mentioned elder races:

The KCCM are reptilian, the dinosaur race, as it were.

The Jag are tusked, mammalian..

The Imass are humanoid, neandertal-like

And the FA, while I got the impression of they being humanoid (as are the others in terms of arms and legs and one head), I got the distinct impression that they were insect-like.

Would this be correct, or not? It kinda seems as if SE is trying to cover most of the major 'species groups' of our own world throughtout history and prehistoric times...

This post has been edited by Lousy: 29 July 2010 - 01:07 AM

[Puck]

I recommend to just read on for now until you get to an encounter with an FA in MT, as well as a huge infodump on their culture and beliefs. These should make some things clear.

I like the insect-analogy, though. Never seen it like that. They sure have flexible limbs and stuff.. But they're more the loners with the K'Chain being the hive mind types.. But really, read on, it's difficult to discuss something without info beforehand

This post has been edited by Puck: 29 July 2010 - 01:21 AM

[HiddenOne]

Lousy, on 29 July 2010 - 01:02 AM, said:

This is certainly some interesting info on the FA (especially the theorized passionate encounters between them and the KCCM) , however, what exactly do they look like?

And the FA, while I got the impression of they being humanoid (as are the others in terms of arms and legs and one head), I got the distinct impression that they were insect-like.

Puck, on 29 July 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

I like the insect-analogy, though. Never seen it like that. They sure have flexible limbs and stuff.. d

You know, these guys always put me in mind of classic alien features, like Area 51 style, the generic alien icon that we've seen for decades in our UFO sighting tabloids. Call me crazy if you want.

[Lousy]

Aha, I hadn't thought about an Area 51-type alien before, but now that you mention it the description in HoC was pretty close to that, if I'm not mistaken...